Robin Tripp
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 Skybolt
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   Topic: Skybolt D vs S
Posted: Oct/21/2006 at 18:47 |
I have the plans for the Standard Skybolt and I am wondering what the differences are on the Delta. the Steen Site does not give a lot of detail. Aside from the increased gross (part of which you lose the benefit of with the increased weight of the 3 piece wing) and the 3 piece wing. What are the "improvements"? I am particularly interested in the opinion of someone who has experience with both.
In short-what do I get for my $100?
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jgnunn
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Posted: Oct/21/2006 at 19:02 |
I hate to be negative, cos I have mostly good dealings with Steen, but I like to be honest. The extra D plans are very poor quality, thus difficult to read, and there were no extra instructions with them [personal experience] - I sold mine for $35 a couple weeks later. There are some anomilies on the plans [ive read that a couple of times somewhere].
Advantages:
-They say it makes for a stronger wing
-you don't have a 24ft monster to keeping turning over..
-Can be built in a smaller shop
-I think the gas tank is larger too
Edited by jgnunn - Oct/21/2006 at 19:34
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John'Beej'Nunn Blog Skybolt S 200HP. Always go the extra mile. The road won't be crowded...
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sambeckham
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Posted: Oct/23/2006 at 12:52 |
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I think they were rushed into releasing the Delta plans because a lot of people were beating down their door to get the R-model plans (the R-model uses the Delta changes). They might have refined them since (or they may be still working on that).
The most signifigant change is, as John noted, the 3 piece wing which has all of the advantages listed above...but it's also heavier. I think the Delta also has the oleo type gear which are supposed to improve ground handling and clearance for the M14 I think...but again they are heavier.
When I talked with the folks at Steen about the Delta drawings they encouraged me to stay with the original design unless I was going to use the radial engine. I don't think I would use the building space issue as an excuse to build the 3-piece wing if that were the only consideration.
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scottly
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Posted: Oct/23/2006 at 14:57 |
STeen told me that they were not messing with the oleo anymore because it was not working out.
As for the weight, the extra weight of the steel parts and spars does not come close to the extra gross rating, as far as I can tell. Only thing to remember is that the increased gross is only so if you use douglas fir spars.....I'vehad no luck finding spar material in fir.
I am building the Delta. I have to because my garage just isn't long enough to put a 24' wing in it. If it weren't for the delta, I'd be back to building another KR2.
Beej is right...no extra instructions and the drawings suck. SOme measurements are wrong, but don't wait for an email response from Steen...you won't get one.
I figgurred out most of the center secton stuff with help fromthe guys over at the 14 group.
And yes, the tank is larger...removable, too.
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Jerry
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Posted: Oct/23/2006 at 17:21 |
Scottly
How far along with the wings are you ? I plan on building those wing for my radial engined bolt. The 3-pc wing came with my supplemental plans.
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jgnunn
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Posted: Oct/23/2006 at 18:24 |
Originally posted by scottly
don't wait for an email response from Steen...you won't get one.
To be fair to Steen [and other companys], due to the many variables involved when an email is sent, an email enquiry does not have a guaranteed chance of making it to the recipient. An email goes thru many hops on its way to a target mail server, they can and do get lost in cyberspace, also, spam can pick it up as a false negative, when u receive high volume email like we do at work it can be tricky at times to identify a bone fide email, and ultimately some will fall through the net on occasion.
This is what I have done for a long time now: Send an email, if no response in X time, I call them. Steen have always been very helpful to me on the phone.
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John'Beej'Nunn Blog Skybolt S 200HP. Always go the extra mile. The road won't be crowded...
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scottly
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Posted: Oct/23/2006 at 18:26 |
I have completed all of the fabrication of hardware and am getting ready to set up the center section.
Previously in this forum, it was noted that the ribs don't have to be exact to plans. Although this may be true, DO NOT construct the center section until you know the EXACT distance between centers on the upper spars.
Also, you must fabricate the upper wing attach fitting (WAFs) using a process that will not leave a heat signature on the hardware, because they must be bent 6.5 degrees and 4130 may crack at the edges if you try it in any other condition besides normalized. I drew mine on CAD and had them water jetted.
I bought a lathe and learned how to use it to make the little pieces that go into the end of the center support tubes. iused 3/4" round stock, mild steel, and turned the lower 3/4" down to plans, drillled through and tapped to plans. I was quoted $240 to make 4 of these. I have a total of $3.25 in the material and a few hundred int he lathe. These are small enough to be done on a mini-lathe if you wish to use one of those.
The center section ribs are shown to be contoured with routed cap strip. i used laminated capstrip bowed in a jig using the plans as a pattern. Again, make sure you know the exact center distance of the wing spars before you do any of this witht he center section.
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JimW
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Posted: Oct/24/2006 at 06:04 |
I think we have one of the most recent sets of Delta plans. We have 57 pages of parts mostly drawn full scale and another 17 pages showing assemblies all 11X17 and all for the center section. Much of it is dated 10/1/05. There are some revisions dated 1/1/06. We also have 8 pages about 24X36 showing more of the center section, 2 large sheets showing the outer wings and 2 large pages showing the fuel tank construction. The fuel tank pages and outer wing pages look like they were drawn a long time ago probably by Curtis. They aren't nearly as clear as the rest. Everything else is very clear and we only found one or two occasions where we had to hunt for a plywood thickness, etc. There is nothing shown for the oleo gear. Granted there were no instructions but the assembly views really cleared up most questions.
We are still undecided which version we will build and purchased our spruce in a way that we could go either way. If we build the Delta we will have to UPS the two center spars. We like the idea of the 18 gallon wing tank but believe there is about a 20-25# penalty overall mostly from hardware. The cabane is going to look much different than a Standard Skybolt. I think an Acroduster cabane would be pretty close. We would have to build fairings for where the wing sections join together.
Concerning Steen, they seem quite willing to answer our questions over the phone. I think they could barely pay the utilities from what they make selling plans. Obviously they need to sell wing kits, assemblies, welded fuselages, flying wires, etc. just to stay in business. We plan to support them whenever we need something they can supply us for close to the same price as ACS or other sources. We want them to stay in business because othewise I think the plans would end up in the hands of someone like ACS. I wouldn't expect any support there. They cautiously hinted around to us that after they finish the Pitts Model 14, they would focus on some improvements to the Skybolt. We plan to hold back on some of our wing and tail construction because of it. We may get to a point where we have to go forward but the improvements sounded very promising. One of the reasons we chose the Skybolt over the Acroduster and others is because there is a Steen. They may not be perfect but we would hate to lose them.
Just my two cents.
Jim
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jgnunn
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Posted: Oct/24/2006 at 06:12 |
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The newer D plans you describe sound like a great step forward. Nice.
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John'Beej'Nunn Blog Skybolt S 200HP. Always go the extra mile. The road won't be crowded...
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scottly
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Posted: Oct/24/2006 at 17:51 |
Originally posted by JimW
Concerning Steen, they seem quite willing to answer our questions over the phone. I think they could barely pay the utilities from what they make selling plans. Obviously they need to sell wing kits, assemblies, welded fuselages, flying wires, etc. just to stay in business.
That being said, don't you think it would benefit them to send some instructions witht he drawings? Offer some instruction updates to those who bought the older ones? Offer some kind of written material to help the builder with the stuff they sell?
It's called customer support. Every product known to man has a user guide available for it....even a toaster.
But if you buy one of their wing kits or other stuff, all you get is a reciept. Think about it.
I'm not condemning Steen....I'd like to see them stay in business for the same reasons as you. But I don't see that happening unless they change a few things, like the literature available to the customer.
If it were a clearer process to build one, I'd think more people would want to build them.
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JimW
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Posted: Oct/25/2006 at 08:33 |
Hi Scott and everyone,
First, the latest "D" plans are far better than the original "S" plans. Maybe they chose to use assembly drawings instead of text to make it more user friendly for overseas customers.
Could they do a better job? Of course.
When we were deciding which plane to build, we quickly narrowed it down to the Acrosport, Acroduster II, Chirsten Eagle, Model 12, and the Skybolt among others.
As for the Acroduster, we already realized that there would not be much support from Aircraft Spruce if we purchased plans from them. They have been fine for us as long as we know exactly what we want but I don't think many of their employees have ever built anything. Not sure about the Acrosport. The Christen Eagle was too much of a kit for us. We wanted to do more of the building ourselves and that initial outlay of large cash was a bit daunting. The Kimball brothers seem to do a great job with their website and e-mail support for their builders. What stopped us there was:
a) My girlfriend absolutely did not want a radial engine and I was not foolish enough to argue.
b) The Model 12 and Kevin Kimball seem to be all about the fastest, most powerful and souped up biplane available. If Tim Allen's tv show "Tool Time" had an episode with a biplane in it, this would undoubtedly be the one. This simply was not what we wanted.
Then there was Steen and the Skybolt. The plane was right and we liked the idea of a real airplane business there if we got into trouble. We spoke with them on the phone several times and my girlfriend paid them a visit while in Florida on business. They often reassured us that we could call them anytime with questions. We really didn't expect much of a manual for our $165.00. I have purchased sailboat and other plans in the past and never received anything more than basic blueprints. We were pleased and suprised to get the limited manual that I believe was prepared by Hale Wallace. We were disappointed to find out that Steen at present doesn't really agree with some of what Hale wrote. They said they really needed to get around to re-writing it. We got into this expecting to have very close contact with an EAA Technical Advisor. We had no knowledge of this forum at the time. If I wasn't so comfortable with woodworking, we probably would attend one of the EAA forums on rib building. We have every book we could find pertaining to the construction of this type of airplane. We have joined one of the local EAA chapters and will probably join another.
I could easily think of a dozen ways that Steen could do a better job to promote the Skybolt, their business and aid in our construction. I presently have a small specialty business myself and can think of a dozen reasons why I might not get it done either if I were in their shoes. Most of the reasons involve time, money and energy.
What Randy and Beej are trying to accomplish with the Skybolt Manual for this forum is admirable. I could easily see it becoming 4 or 500 pages if they try to really make it easy with for anyone with no building experience to get from A to Z on this plane. I don't think Steen has the time or the incentive to create such a manual. At least not without a serious price increase on the plans and not many people would appreciate that.
For us, Steen is doing an adequate job so far. They seem to be more comfortable with phone conversations. If somehow we cannot get answers from them when we ask, we will express our disappointment.
I would like to ask everyone to remember one thing. The internet is a very powerful tool and negative press can really hurt a company. Please give it a fair amount of thought before you write anything negative about any of our sources. We would hate to lose them.
best regards,
Jim
Edited by JimW - Oct/25/2006 at 08:34
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scottly
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Posted: Oct/25/2006 at 10:02 |
Nice post Jim. Allow me to ad this:
Sometimes one man's negative press is another man's helpful information. Anything I and others have written about any supplier have been based on personal experience. I am not bashing Steen...hell, I like them. They're nice people. I just wish they would consider some constructive criticisms.
I too was a small business owner, and I always made time to help a customer, in some cases going tho their house. I listened to them and tried to adapt to their needs and wants. Tha's how I stayed in business.
I met the folks from Steen at the Sun and Fun. Nice people. They engaged me in converation and showed me the wing rib jigs they had for sale that makes the job easier. They showed me the plane. They invited me to their shop. They were very friendly.
But even though some people such as yourself maybe comfortable building from blueprints, what about the guy that isn't? Having a small elite group is nice, except when it comes to survival rates.
The small, elite group called pilots are not surviving, that's why the lite Sport license is seen by some as the savior of the future of aviation. It opens the doors for more people.
A better organized manual with better quality drawings would open more doors also, and I think they could do it at minimal expense. In retail terms, the plans are your loss-leader, to lure the customer in to buying your other wares.
If you scare them away, you'll never have a chance at selling them anything else.....and in my opinion, that's what the current crop of drawings does. It scares, it does not invite.
That's just my $.02. Thanks for your $.02, and I hope that Steen lives on and does well.
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Randy
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Posted: Oct/25/2006 at 13:55 |
I hate to admit it but my wife may be right! She says I would be a really nice guy if it wasn't for my big mouth :( I am sorry I made this post so now it is gone so it won't generate any more negative discussion. And John selected me as a moderator. Bet he wishes he could turn back the clock on that one. . .
I will go back to doing my job, writing the SkyBolt construction manual, moderating posts (especially my own) and offering my advicer on subjects I actually know something about.
As soon as I solve my pagination problem the first insatallment ot the manual will appear. I can still use pictures and "how-you-did-it" text in the metal fittings and rib construction area's. They will be the next installments and I have little to use except my own experience. As I said before, I am not building a SkyBolt so I cannot provide pictures of anything.
Edited by Randy - Oct/26/2006 at 06:16
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Life is not measured by how many breaths you take but by the moments that take your breath away
Randy
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Robin Tripp
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Posted: Oct/25/2006 at 14:16 |
I think I opened Pandora's box! To circle back to my original question, I think I will stick with the Standard version, because "weight is the enemy!".
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scottly
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Posted: Oct/25/2006 at 14:58 |
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"Space" is my enemy! Of course, weight comes in a close second.
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jgnunn
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Posted: Oct/25/2006 at 19:40 |
Originally posted by Randy
I think you all know how I feel about Steen Aero so I won't repeat it but I do have just one question. If they are serious about customer support and getting more potential customers to commit to the SkyBolt why are they not on this site. They can join for free, no site upkeep or updating, just answer questions ??
Because, to put it bluntly, sites like this and the biplane hangar which evolve due to builders wanting to help themselves do the job for them without them having to do anything. These sites were built for us, but a natural spin-off from these sites means more potential business for them, resulting in potentially more biplanes for us to go see.
I doubt they would partake in the forum because then they would have to deal with threads like this [im not saying it's a bad thread] with personal complaints OR praises. These genuine complaints and praises should not be dealt with by Steen on an open public forum. Sure, you might say they could ignore the banter and just answer tech questions, but that's pretty difficult to do when a tech question like D or S? goes off on a tangent like this one did.
So personaly, I think they are staying at a professional and somewhat neutral level by sitting on the sidelines.
True story from 2 years back:
A programmer built a shopping cart script, he sold the script at $49 per cust on his website. He had a forum for support. He answered tech questions in a tech sub-forum, but never answered anything else. He did well, 'had a huge following for his product. He made a killing when someone bought the rights from him. The new guy upped the price a little and offered add-ons to the cart script, and the new policy was to answer all questions thinking he was providing a better cust service. Trouble is, some questions are naturally complaint-based, and they were being answered publicly. Eventually, you could see this guy was getting irritated by a minority of customers by the way he was answering posts 'as promised', resulting in a general negative aire about the whole product.
His shopping cart software and website no longer exist.
So my take is that it's wiser for a company to distance themselves from the customer in an open platform like this, but focus upon customer service in the more traditional approaches.
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John'Beej'Nunn Blog Skybolt S 200HP. Always go the extra mile. The road won't be crowded...
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jgnunn
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Posted: Oct/25/2006 at 19:48 |
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Robin, probably a good choice to stick with the tried and tested method of the S type. Does anyone actually know of anyone who has built the D wing and cabanes?
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John'Beej'Nunn Blog Skybolt S 200HP. Always go the extra mile. The road won't be crowded...
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