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Old 12-10-2016, 04:44 AM   #1
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I'm hoping my new to me Starduster is going to arrive in the morning. I bought it long distance with pic.'s and emails in early Nov. I contracted for a delivery the 25 of nov. but the shipper has worst luck than the last one to breakfast in a family of ten. He has broken down a bunch but I think he'll make it tomorrow.
Can't wait to go over it and see what I bought. The lower wings are damaged and will be in the shop for a while getting repaired, sooo I'm thinking of putting the skis on and blasting around my airport without wings. We have 3-4" of snow on the ground and 5" on the way. I might start a new trend in the north country.
I posted about putting skis on my SD and thought I had 1500 but when I dug them out they are 1850's should work ok.
Anybody know what the VNE Is without wing?


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Old 12-10-2016, 04:53 AM   #2
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I wouldn't move too fast without wings on, if at all -- you'll have very little roll stability, and the CG is going to be quite different. It would truly suck to roll the plane while taxiing and add a prop strike teardown to your list of repairs. This is based on what others have said and some basic thought experiment work, so it's worth what you paid for it.


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Old 12-11-2016, 05:43 AM   #3
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Saber, do a little research and you'll drop this idea like a hot potato!
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Old 12-11-2016, 11:57 AM   #4
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If you run engine w/o wings tie the tail DOWN and probably best to also be sitting in the airplane. I almost lost my prop/engine on the first start-up. Was alone, propped it and although tail was tied it had some slack. Oh, it was also chocked. When it started with a bit of throttle(1000 rpm or so) the airplane pivoted over the chocks/tail came up. I instantly saw what was happening and managed to reach cockpit and hold it down while I retarded throttle.....

Of coarse same thing could happen with wings on with chocks coupled with slack tail tie and too much throttle.

Best to have help. Especially with a first start where you should have three people if

propping...one in cockpit, one on propeller and 3rd with fire extinguisher.

Be careful out there.

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Old 12-11-2016, 12:04 PM   #5
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I almost turned a Champ over doing taxi tests with the wings off. Of course, I was 16 at the time so that might have had something to do with it. Even at that age I realized quickly it was a stupid idea. Didn't even start it again until the wings were installed and the entire airplane was ready to fly even if it wasn't signed off and all legal.
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Old 12-11-2016, 11:02 PM   #6
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I agree that it's a bad idea, but I understand the urge. When I was a kid we were rebuilding an old '31 Stinson Jr. and Daddy and my brother Jim ran it up and down the runway without the wing; the complete tail was installed. With the gear geometry and a great long fuselage, I don't think there was much risk of nosing it over, but it still might not have been a great idea. That said, they both talked about how good the acceleration was when they poured the coal to it!
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Old 12-11-2016, 11:59 PM   #7
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Funny, what everybody said is almost verbatim what my friend here said. Even a couple of guys that did it with the same results. Well sounded like fun anyway.
The plane finally arrived today and we put it in my shop and I got to sit in it and play. It's very well built, I'm very impressed with the way everything is installed. The workmanship is book perfect and all the fitting, hardware and hoses are aircraft not auto. The engine has been maintained by a IA since new and it shows very nice. I'll do a condition inspection on it in the morning then will get after the damage. I peeked at one wing and the spars are good so just rib damage.
Anyway thanks for the good advise, looking forward putting this together, this will be my fist biplane. For that matter my first biplane ride will be flying this.
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Old 12-12-2016, 05:01 AM   #8
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Should be fun. My first biplane flight was a S1C.
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Old 12-12-2016, 02:54 PM   #9
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Make sure you look really close at the rear spar where the tip now attaches to the spar. When I first looking at mine I though cool no problems just broke the tip bow loose (my tip bows are wood). Upon a more in depth inspection I found a crack in the spar going from the tip inbd about 12-18". The crack can only be seen from the aft side side the leading edge was still on etc. I decided to change the spar since there in not a spot that really meets 41.30 splice advice (so many inches from a fitting , rib etc I'd have to look at it again to tell you exactly but there's to many fittings that made it not meet the criteria with the drag tubes and aileron hinge). All that led to seeing some other loose glue joint and ultimately made me to just build a complete new wing using the old metal fittings (stripped, inspected and now powder coated). Just be ready to accept that it may be greater damage than at first noted...no biggie...just time and money. Safety is priority! And I assume the putting skis on and running it around is a joke...if not...don't do that knucklehead!
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Old 12-12-2016, 03:13 PM   #10
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My old SD2 was ground looped and repaired before I bought it, wing tip and gear..... It was repaired. I inspected it, my IA inspected it and it flew another 25-30 years, 300 hours and 25-30 annuals and the cracked spar wasn't found until it was recovered/rebuilt.
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Old 12-12-2016, 09:36 PM   #11
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Truth be told aviators in WWI learned to taxi without the wings on. Someone watching commented it looked like a bunch of Parisian Taxis and the name stuck. Still it's a bad idea as you don't know how those fuselages were specially prepared for the task (Kind of like the artillery men holding the horses if you have ever heard that story) and back than they excepted ground loop damage as a cost of doing business.
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:18 AM   #12
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Thanks guys took one wing apart and made the repair ribs. The inspection went well no spar cracks. Need to make two bows (wood), and new leading edges. Don't want to jinks myself but this was the worst damaged wing. Will be assembling the wood in the morning except the bow and cleaning up the hardware . Should have this one covered by Friday night. Monday start on the next one, that's the plan until a job comes in that can't wait. Still have a Certified Wilga apart needing a strut rebuilt and brakes overhauled but seem I'm always waiting for parts on it. I'll keep you posted, that's for the help.
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Old 12-15-2016, 04:08 AM   #13
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Work is going along well, made a tip bow and installed it and a few ribs today and will make the leading edges in the morning. Interesting working on a experimental plane, the aelrons are 72" long vs. 42" on the plans, it changes the lay out of the wing.
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Old 12-15-2016, 04:33 AM   #14
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Does your airplane have ailerons on the lower wing only, or are the upper and lower ailerons both 72" long? Of the 650 or so airplanes built less than two dozen have ailerons on the lower wings only, all of the rest have upper and lower ailerons. According to my plans on sheet # 7 the lower ailerons are 40" long and the uppers are 41" long? I am just guessing, but you probably have ailerons on the lower wing only. Dave


Please post some pictures?
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Old 12-15-2016, 01:20 PM   #15
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Hi Dave, yes it's a two aileron version. The funny thing is I only saw one other StarDuster in person and it is a two aileron. That one has spade's on the ailerons.
My SD is the purple and white one that was for sale on Barnstormers. It's a beautiful plane and the workmanship is first class. Both bottom wings were damaged in a grn mishap and the first one is almost ready for fabric. Tomorrow I'll open the other and see where I stand. The only problem I see is it is built with heavy materials, the front cowl is .067 for example. The empty wt. is 1280 on the wt. and bal., wondering what the average is?
Dave thank you for all the input you have done here and in general on the Internet.
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Old 12-15-2016, 03:24 PM   #16
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At least on average it's cooler up there, she is on the hefty side. I'd seriously consider weight reduction if possible.

In my case I've trimmed the airplane pretty well, I need to push the pilot away from the table.
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Old 12-15-2016, 10:20 PM   #17
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That what I thought, I'd like to chop about hundred off, but don't know if I can. The wing leading edges are .032 or so, cowl .067 and lots of heavy stuff. But on the up side it saved this aircraft in the accident, the leading edges took the energy out of the impact. I'm reading that about 1100-1500 is ideal.
Finished the wood today on the first wing and made the leading edge. Tomorrow will be put the edge on and clean and prep for the fabric.
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Old 12-16-2016, 03:02 AM   #18
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Ops, the wt. of 1000-1150
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Old 12-16-2016, 06:25 AM   #19
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I figured it was a type-o
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Old 12-20-2016, 11:42 PM   #20
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Fabric going on the wing tomorrow morning. I'm using the Stewart System, love working with it. It took eight days to get here, mostly half days. Now the other wing is the only major damage left. It's only the end 10" or so and just needs a end rib and bow. Also 6"'s of spar needs a splice. I'm going to try and shoot color first week of Jan. Just trying to find a paint booth which is hard up here this time of year.
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Old 01-11-2017, 03:21 PM   #21
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Ok, back to work! LOL, my schedule is a little off but oh well. The one wing was covered, half old fabric and half new, didn't like it so just cut it off and will renew the whole wing today. The repairs are done on the other wing and will cover it tomorrow or that's the plan anyway. More later.
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Old 01-11-2017, 03:41 PM   #22
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Any photos of your project?
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:04 AM   #23
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Indeed. W/O pictures it does not exist.
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Old 01-12-2017, 05:17 AM   #24
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[]Click image for larger version

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Here are a couple of pic's
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Old 01-12-2017, 05:33 AM   #25
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The middle pic has old fabric on that after I covered to it I didn't like it and cut the old stuff off. Covering it in the morning.


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