The Biplane Forum > General Discussion > Hangar Talk > Pitts vs RV dogfight



Help Support Biplane Forum by donating using the link above or becoming a Supporting Member.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-21-2017, 11:07 PM   #26
mreinh3233
Registered Users
 
mreinh3233's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 218
Liked 54 Times on 35 Posts
Likes Given: 216

Default

If biplanes were still the best at dog fighting the Air Force would still be flying them. Don’t get me wrong I really like biplanes (Look what I fly) they just can’t compete with monoplanes when it come to dogfighting.


mreinh3233 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2017, 12:08 AM   #27
death trap
Registered Users
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: palm coast fl
Posts: 384
Liked 78 Times on 58 Posts
Likes Given: 48

Send a message via MSN to death trap
Default Dog fight

Paul are you flying in the am ? RV 8 vs Eagle over Lafayette Landing .


death trap is offline  
plschulten Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2017, 12:24 AM   #28
biplanebob
Member
BiP_SUPPORTER.png
 
biplanebob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pennsylvania,United States
Posts: 808
Liked 316 Times on 221 Posts
Likes Given: 1655

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plschulten View Post
Can we really mention RV's in the same sentence as a PITTS!!???

Only if you have owned and flown both ! ......gmann qualifies
__________________
biplanebob,

Built and flying a Willie II Biplane
biplanebob is offline  
VF84Sluggo Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2017, 12:50 AM   #29
death trap
Registered Users
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: palm coast fl
Posts: 384
Liked 78 Times on 58 Posts
Likes Given: 48

Send a message via MSN to death trap
Default Dog fight

Truth be known Paul S can probably "Shoot Me Down " flying a Luscombe 😩.
death trap is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2017, 01:14 AM   #30
marquartflyer
Registered Users
BiP_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
marquartflyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Daytona FL
Posts: 157
Liked 99 Times on 46 Posts
Likes Given: 68

Default

Tom, Paul is sending in his second string- see you there!
marquartflyer is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 10:12 AM   #31
Eric_Anderson
Registered Users
BiP_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
Eric_Anderson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Posts: 969
Liked 371 Times on 216 Posts
Likes Given: 352

Default

Talk is cheap! If the RV is so bloody manueverable then more should be at contests.
Eric_Anderson is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 10:30 AM   #32
jmorgan
BiP_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 175
Liked 44 Times on 31 Posts
Likes Given: 92

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric_Anderson View Post
Talk is cheap! If the RV is so bloody manueverable then more should be at contests.
There were a few at the Farmville contest this weekend. Not too many, but more than I expected.
jmorgan is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 02:19 PM   #33
Hova
BiP_SUPPORTER.png
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Colorado
Posts: 122
Liked 16 Times on 13 Posts
Likes Given: 17

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric_Anderson View Post
Talk is cheap! If the RV is so bloody manueverable then more should be at contests.
https://www.iac.org/files/nationals-...2s04s05s06.htm

2016 had as many RVs as Pitts at nationals flying Sportsman. They are out there, just hard to fly in contests since they pick up speed so fast on downlines. Great platforms for dogfighting or gentlemen acro but not the best at drawing precise figures in the sky
__________________
Jay
Hova is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 02:32 PM   #34
death trap
Registered Users
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: palm coast fl
Posts: 384
Liked 78 Times on 58 Posts
Likes Given: 48

Send a message via MSN to death trap
Default Dog fight

Report from Dog Fight over the weekend......"Eagle ....its what's for Dinner "

Rv8. 1
Eagle 0
death trap is offline  
4
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 02:49 PM   #35
grassroots
Premium Member
 
grassroots's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 1,654
Liked 872 Times on 477 Posts
Likes Given: 208

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hova View Post
2016 had as many RVs as Pitts at nationals flying Sportsman. They are out there, just hard to fly in contests since they pick up speed so fast on downlines. Great platforms for dogfighting or gentlemen acro but not the best at drawing precise figures in the sky
The RV speed build up issue is overblown. You can do any Sportsman figure easily from 150-160mph. Vne is 210-230 depending on the model. Fair amount of margin. Yeah they build speed quicker than a Pitts, but those low aspect ratio wings produce lots of drag at high AOA/G and there is also this thing called the throttle knob that we Pitts pilots tend to ignore.

So the speed build up is something that's easily managed once you've passed the rank newbie stage and have gotten a feel for the airplane. I flew one for 5 years. They are perfectly well suited through Sportsman level sequences. If you're willing to snap them, they can do very well in Intermediate as well. Ron Schreck has proven that. I'd take one any day over a Decathlon. Folks tend to generalize about RVs and competition acro as if the baseline is an Extra 330SC flying Unlimited. Yeah RVs are "not the best" at this level, but what tends to get lost is that the category structure puts lots of different aircraft types on a level playing field. The RV is just another aerobatic type and they should be encouraged, not discouraged.

And having flown a fair amount in both types, I'd totally give the ACM advantage to the RV. It's much cleaner, has lower wing loading, lower stall speed, and can turn tighter. ACM and aerobatic performance are two different things.
__________________
Pitts S-1S

Last edited by grassroots; 10-23-2017 at 03:03 PM.
grassroots is online now  
4
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 03:17 PM   #36
bf92
BiP_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
bf92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bountiful, UT
Posts: 1,539
Liked 325 Times on 207 Posts
Likes Given: 7

Default

The danger with the speed build-up in an RV is the amount of lift available before stalling at the higher speeds. Lift increases as a function of the square of the speed. For example, if the 1-g stall speed is 50MPH, then at 100MPH (MPHx2 squared)the wing will stall at 4-g; at 150MPH (MPHx3 squared) it will stall at 9-G. But the airplane is limited to maybe 6-g. The square root of 6 is 2.449, hence 50MPH x 2.449 = 122.45MPH to reach the g-limit. In a Pitts the published stall speed is 62MPH x 2.449 = 151.8MPH. A Pitts has much higher induced drag when pulling corners than an RV, so it will slow down much quicker in a pull. The RV will keep it's speed up much better, so a pilot needs to be careful pulling a corner at high speed.

Danny
__________________
Local FAA inspector:\"Remember, we\'re not happy till you\'re not happy!\"
bf92 is offline  
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 04:09 PM   #37
akt227
Registered Users
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Iowa Park, TX
Posts: 231
Liked 60 Times on 34 Posts

Send a message via MSN to akt227
Default

I think a big reason for the speed build-up hype is to discourage a new RV pilot from taking his nimble, easy to fly airplane out and teaching himself to fly acro. Those situations often end poorly.
akt227 is offline  
VF84Sluggo Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 06:14 PM   #38
grassroots
Premium Member
 
grassroots's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 1,654
Liked 872 Times on 477 Posts
Likes Given: 208

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by akt227 View Post
I think a big reason for the speed build-up hype is to discourage a new RV pilot from taking his nimble, easy to fly airplane out and teaching himself to fly acro. Those situations often end poorly.
Can't disagree with that, but I think it's possible to have two separate conversations about RV flying qualities in a way that doesn't discourage qualified and cautiously interested folks from taking that first step toward getting more involved with acro/competition. I've been paying attention to RV acro issues for a long time and the false perception problems among RV pilots are a very real obstacle to getting involved with the sport. Van himself has contributed to this issue over the years, though has recently been willing to publish a more positive message. I know most RV pilots don't buy them for dedicated acro purposes, but it's a large untapped "market" that could definitely benefit the sport for those few who realize the potential of their airplane and are interested in learning to utilize it. That being said, it's also hard to fix stupid.
__________________
Pitts S-1S
grassroots is online now  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 08:15 PM   #39
Eric_Anderson
Registered Users
BiP_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
Eric_Anderson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Posts: 969
Liked 371 Times on 216 Posts
Likes Given: 352

Default

You all have saved me the embarrassing mistake of picking a fight with an RV. I am even scared of Citabrias now!
Eric_Anderson is offline  
4
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 11:27 PM   #40
marquartflyer
Registered Users
BiP_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
marquartflyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Daytona FL
Posts: 157
Liked 99 Times on 46 Posts
Likes Given: 68

Default

As the loser of the battle with deathtrap, I can say the RV 8 is a formidable mount. I think if I make no mistakes in the Eagle I could hold him from getting a good shot but to get good shots on him will be really tough. We are both running angle valve 360s so horsepowers are close, but the -8 can maintain energy much better. May be why Bohannon started with a -4 for his climb records. They may be an erector set airplane but they do perform.
marquartflyer is offline  
Kiwi Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 11:54 PM   #41
cwilliamrose
BiP_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
cwilliamrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 6,774
Liked 1388 Times on 1037 Posts
Likes Given: 9

Default

Since these things tend to be pull-fests I think a light flatwing with an IO-360 is going to be required. The RV-8 is at an advantage due to the airfoils' CL difference. The right biplane will have a ROC and pure vertical advantage which could be exploited. The Eagle isn't going to be that airplane.
__________________
...........Bill

Project:Stretched Pitts S-1SS

cwilliamrose is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2017, 02:25 AM   #42
akt227
Registered Users
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Iowa Park, TX
Posts: 231
Liked 60 Times on 34 Posts

Send a message via MSN to akt227
Default

If you want to get your average RV'er into competition aerobatics, you'll have to find a way to program an acro sequence into a Dynon.
akt227 is offline  
9
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2017, 09:06 AM   #43
Kiwi
Registered Users
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 361
Liked 104 Times on 65 Posts
Likes Given: 581

Default

Sounds like I should dust off the RV project……...
Kiwi is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2017, 03:09 PM   #44
VF84Sluggo
Non-Communist
 
VF84Sluggo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Gulf Breeze, FL
Posts: 16
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts
Likes Given: 13

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grassroots View Post
acm and aerobatic performance are two different things.
Bingo !!!
VF84Sluggo is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2017, 03:22 PM   #45
VF84Sluggo
Non-Communist
 
VF84Sluggo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Gulf Breeze, FL
Posts: 16
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts
Likes Given: 13

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by akt227 View Post
I think a big reason for the speed build-up hype is to discourage a new RV pilot from taking his nimble, easy to fly airplane out and teaching himself to fly acro. Those situations often end poorly.
Agreed!

Years ago, when I owned my RV-3A, I visited Van out at his shop just outside Portland. We got to talking about the bad rap the -3 was getting for in-flight airframe failures.

The "problem", Van said, if you can call it that, is that the -3 builds speed QUICKLY at full power and nose low. Fighter pilot wannabes with no training bury the nose, let the plane get away from them, and then snatch on the stick. Van told me that at the red-line Vne speed of 186 KIAS, there are 17 instantaneous G's available in an RV-3 if you reef back on the stick.

Of course, you'll only pull that much for a very short bit, as the airframe then comes from together to apart...
VF84Sluggo is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2017, 03:41 PM   #46
wzm
Registered Users
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 61
Liked 43 Times on 16 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VF84Sluggo View Post
Agreed!

Years ago, when I owned my RV-3A, I visited Van out at his shop just outside Portland. We got to talking about the bad rap the -3 was getting for in-flight airframe failures.

The "problem", Van said, if you can call it that, is that the -3 builds speed QUICKLY at full power and nose low. Fighter pilot wannabes with no training bury the nose, let the plane get away from them, and then snatch on the stick. Van told me that at the red-line Vne speed of 186 KIAS, there are 17 instantaneous G's available in an RV-3 if you reef back on the stick.

Of course, you'll only pull that much for a very short bit, as the airframe then comes from together to apart...
http://www.rv-3.com/Info/CN-2.pdf

If you spoke with Van before 1996, you might have missed this. They redid the static test and found that the wing would fail early if it wasn't built with "optional" epoxy.
wzm is offline  
Larry Lyons Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2017, 05:00 PM   #47
Larry Lyons
Registered Users
BiP_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
Larry Lyons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockton, IL.
Posts: 3,409
Liked 788 Times on 604 Posts
Likes Given: 1428

Default

That's an interesting read WZM, thanks.
__________________
Larry Lyons
Rebuilt:
Smith Mini, flying
Taylorcraft, almost flying
and on going Taylorcraft project

In dog beers I've only had one!
Larry Lyons is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2017, 08:16 PM   #48
plschulten
Registered Users
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ormond Beach FL USA
Posts: 86
Liked 16 Times on 14 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Send a message via MSN to plschulten
Default

I was only kidding about pulling the wings off!!
plschulten is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2017, 02:26 PM   #49
Gmovies
Registered Users
 
Gmovies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Wichita, Boring, KS
Posts: 297
Liked 64 Times on 38 Posts
Likes Given: 8

Default

My Dad has an RV8 and he loves it. It is fast, smooth, efficient, and absolutely wonderful to fly. It will easily do any of the lazy acro maneuvers I like to do. The one thing my Pitts does better is tug at my heartstrings whenever I look at it. There is nothing like the romance of a biplane, especially one that can flip upside down.
Gmovies is offline  
3
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2017, 02:32 PM   #50
jmorgan
BiP_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 175
Liked 44 Times on 31 Posts
Likes Given: 92

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmovies View Post
My Dad has an RV8 and he loves it. It is fast, smooth, efficient, and absolutely wonderful to fly. It will easily do any of the lazy acro maneuvers I like to do. The one thing my Pitts does better is tug at my heartstrings whenever I look at it. There is nothing like the romance of a biplane, especially one that can flip upside down.
This is why we need multiple airplanes...except that darn money thing (at least for me).


jmorgan is offline  
3
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dogfight Game N95334 Off Topic 4 03-16-2013 11:08 PM