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Old 04-29-2017, 05:26 PM   #1
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Default Hio360c1a conversion

I'm starting to overhaul my HIO360C1A. Both the case, pistons and crank have been overhauled. I'm looking for a person who could answer my many of my lingering questions. I have the options of the 10/1 pistons and I've got questions. If you have any knowledge of doing this conversion please lend a hand. Thanks DTP


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Old 04-29-2017, 10:31 PM   #2
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Ask the question. Lots want to hear. The engine is based on the rear governor setup without the stuff machined.


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Old 04-30-2017, 12:21 AM   #3
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It is essential that the oiler tubes be installed if you use the 10/1 pistons due heat build up. They provide oil to the back side of the pistons "ie cooling". People do play engineer, and stick Hi Comp pistons in their engines. And yes they will run, but this is a short cut I would not make.
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Old 04-30-2017, 10:23 AM   #4
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Reduces TBO 33%. For a competition or airshow guy who expects to wear out their engine well before the published TBO that its not big deal. For the recreational guy who is trying to make their engine last, increased compression can result in an unhappy surprise.

As noted above, the higher horsepower engines all have oil jets cooling the bottom of the pistons. The engine in question should have those, but best to confirm by looking at the parts book.

Rob Holland has 11:1 pistons in his engine I think and he is really happy to get 600 hrs between overhauls. I recall that he reported that a lot of his peers only get 500hrs.

Best of luck,

Wes
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Old 04-30-2017, 10:35 PM   #5
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Best to confirm by looking at the case. They are drilled into the oil galleys on the left and right case halves. They are hard to miss if you are looking for them. But, sometimes they get bent or broke! "Caution Note Here" the oil galleys have to be sparkling clean on this engine. I use a brass shotgun bore brush and rod, and polish the snot out of it. Along with cleaning the cam follower holes the squirt tubes themselves ect. Then I hook up my water hose via an adapter. I run the pressure up until I have got a good flow through all of the oil passages. I verify that each one is unobscured, and place a finger over each one, and make sure the pressure surge is the same on all holes. I let the case halves air dry under a sheet. That's when mamma says "Get this engine out of my bed" : ) This takes a lot of time, but the bulk of time on any engine build is in cleaning! Fact!
Tip: Set up a sturdy table big enough for all of your parts to go on, and have them all laid out and clean before you start. And keep it covered.
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Old 04-30-2017, 11:02 PM   #6
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As mentioned, the H engine should already have extra oil squirters.
While you are working on it, make the case mod for inverted oil.
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Old 04-30-2017, 11:02 PM   #7
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Another thought, I could not imagine doing an unbalanced version of this engine. Or using the light flange crankshaft!
These two items are disqualifications for me.
I would not put my name on it!
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Old 05-01-2017, 10:15 AM   #8
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You may want to explore having the cam profiled to get the maximum efficiency out of your 10:1 pistons.
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Old 06-17-2017, 11:03 PM   #9
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Don't use the high rpm helicopter cam.
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Old 06-18-2017, 04:54 AM   #10
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I'm just curious what the problem is with using the Helo cam? Thanks
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Old 06-18-2017, 12:15 PM   #11
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Only the D1A came with 10:1 pistons.
The C1A engine came with 8.7:1 pistons, but yes, the 10:1 pistons will fit.
The C1A cam was pn 76097. The D1A cam is pn LW-14970.

According to the Lycoming Engine Operators Manual (Part No. 60297-12), the "C" engine is rated at 205 hp @ 2900rpm. The "D" engine is rated at only 190hp @ 3200 rpm.

So why not just build it as a "C" and have the higher horsepower ?
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Old 06-18-2017, 12:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingbandit View Post
I'm just curious what the problem is with using the Helo cam? Thanks
I think my above post is why RTH says not to use the helicopter cam... the peak power is developed in an RPM range that a propeller probably would not like.

For comparison, an AIO-360 -A or -B, as well as an IO-360-A, -C, -D, -J, -K, produces 200hp @ 2700 rpm.

Click on the link in my post above and you can look over the various engines to see what their rated horsepower is and at what RPM they develop that horsepower.

For what it's worth, the pn 76097 cam of the HIO-360-C1A is the SAME cam as used in the AEIO-360 -B1G6 or the -H1A. So, maybe he does not have to get it re-profiled?
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Old 06-18-2017, 12:38 PM   #13
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The D1A engine only puts out less horsepower on paper because it's manifold pressure limited in the H-269C helicopter. It's kind of a crude form of ''flat rating'' like is done with turboprops. Don't know what the D1A could really produce if you compared the D1A and C1A in identical fixed wing installations.
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Old 06-18-2017, 02:35 PM   #14
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Seems that cash flyer knows more about these engines than I do. What I was saying was dont use the high rpm cam. I don't know the part numbers but it seems that cash does. Anyhow I have the high rpm cam in my Starduster and wish I had the standard airplane cam. At the time I was building mine I was told that the high rpm cam would make a hot rod out of it. Not so. I had my prop repitched for higher rpm, but it climbs worse than it did with a lower rpm prop. I was trying to get the engine in its right rpm range but it didn't help. I talked to Lycon afterwords and they said they did testing with this cam all the way up to like 3600 or something,and it never would make as much power as the standard cam. I think my engine turns 3150 wide open straight and level. You may already have the right cam, I just didn't want anybody making the same mistake I made.
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:20 PM   #15
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RTH... My wife assures me that I don't *know* anything.
I just looked up the info in the Lycoming manuals.


On another topic, but related to engine rpm:
On a 76 inch prop, the tips travel 238.6 inches per revolution.
At 2700 rpm, the tips are traveling 644328 inches per minute, or 610 mph
At 2900 rpm, the tips are traveling 655 mph
At 3200 rpm, 723 mph
At 3500 rpm, 790 mph.

In dry air at 68 F, the speed of sound is 767 mph.

Most propellers have a "best efficiency" that is below the speed of sound, so you want to make sure you are getting your best power at an rpm that works best for your prop.

Re-pitching a prop can certainly add drag that will lower your engine's rpm limit - but that does not change the range at which the engine makes best power. If you have an engine that makes best power at 3500 rpm, and you pitch the prop to drag the engine down to 2700 rpm, you are also then running with a lower horsepower output.
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:57 PM   #16
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Cash, without me having to do the math is there a table that shows how many inches each length of prop goes? 86", 88", 93" is what I'm curious about.
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Old 06-22-2017, 08:13 PM   #17
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Should just be prop length (diameter) times pi.

86" prop = 270" per revolution,
88" prop = 276.4" per,
93" prop = 292.2" per.

edit: or more generally, to go from a prop size and RPM to tip speed:

(prop length) * (rpm) * (pi) / 1056 = tip speed in MPH.

(where 1/1056 is the conversion from inches per minute to miles per hour)
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Old 06-22-2017, 11:04 PM   #18
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Yeah - what jpr said.
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:56 AM   #19
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Dont forget to factor in the forward speed of the airplane... The tip speed is calculated on a helix, not just RPM.
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Old 06-23-2017, 01:05 PM   #20
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Thanks guys. Helix? Now I really don't have a clue. I got 678mph at 2450rpm for a 93" so still under....not taking into account Forward Motion.

Was curious as I'm having a 93" prop and a 88" overhauled for the Ranger right now. Setting the 93" to a wee bit less pitch than 88" specs for the engine prop combo. 88" is set to spec. Just doing the 93 because I have it and I'm curious if extra length will help speed or climb any. I know on a Pratt 450hp 6101-12 blades vs say -18 blades (109" vs 103") makes a huge difference in power. Not as much speed, some but the -12 blades pull A Lot harder.
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Old 06-23-2017, 05:55 PM   #21
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Propeller rotational velocity is:
Vr(ft/sec) = RPM * Prop Diameter(inches) * pi / (12 * 60),

Translational velocity is the aircraft TAS expressed in feet per second, or:
Vt(ft/sec) = KTAS * 6076 / 3600

With the rotational and translational speed you can calculate the helical tip speed:
Vht(ft/sec) = square root (Vr^2 + Vt^2)

S.O.S.(SL, Std Atmos, ft/sec) = 1116.8

Hope this helps,

Art
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Old 06-26-2017, 04:31 AM   #22
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I'm an amateur builder that's very grateful for all your help. My case has new oiler tubes for my 10/1 pistons heat issue. I'll investigated Cashflyer diagram for the inverted oil mod. but to be honest this scares the hell out of me. My plan to use the H model cam still stand but I might need help calculation the helix of my 2950 rpm 140kt airplane will be a challenge. I still haven't purchased a fuel system any thoughts of Bendix vs Airflow?


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