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Old 04-17-2012, 03:07 PM   #1
birdus
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Default My Super Baby Great Lakes build

I'm building a Super Baby Great Lakes. If you want to follow along, here's a blog I'm keeping:

http://buildingthesuperbabygreatlakes.blogspot.com/

Jay



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Old 04-17-2012, 03:39 PM   #2
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Congrats! Those are nice biplanes. Keep us updated.

If you're ever in the East Seattle area, let me know if you're interested in stopping in and taking a look at the Skybolt, shoot the breeze and have a coffee.
There are several other Biplanes in the area also.

Welcome to the forum!



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Old 04-17-2012, 05:47 PM   #3
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You've got a very professional looking rib jig. I just used scraps of leftover plywood from the nose ribs to hold the pieces in place. Not as pretty as yours, but my ribs look the same.

Have you considered using a staple gun to hold the gussets in place? I've been nailing mine just like you have, and I'm starting to think staples might save a lot of time.

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Old 04-17-2012, 09:49 PM   #4
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Hey, another local! Welcome to the Forum!

I've always liked the looks of the Baby Lakes, I'll be watching your build pages. There are two other Baby Lakes that I know of here in the area. The yellow one on your site is at Concrete and one in Aberdeen area owned by a participant on this board by the name of Marc.

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Old 04-18-2012, 05:12 PM   #5
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Thanks for saying hi, everyone.

Doug, if I'm in your neighborhood, I'll give you a shout. There's coffee in Seattle?

Sarge, I saw someone else use the steel pins in their jig and thought it was a good idea. The pins were expensive, but they work pretty well. No doubt scrap wood would work just as well. Hadn't thought about staples. The nails came as part of the kit, so I'll just keep using them (in lieu of buying something else). And for the gussets on the flipside of the rib, I don't use anything. I just set the whole jig on top of it overnight so enough pressure is applied to them to get a good joint.

John, I would love to see the other Baby Great Lakes. I'll have to keep my eyes peeled at the Fly In later in the year. Maybe I'll look Marc up on the forum, too.

Anyone who wants to follow my build can always subscribe to the RSS feed. That would be the easiest way to do it, as you get notified whenever I make a new post.

Jay

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Old 04-18-2012, 05:27 PM   #6
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Marc's profile here on the forum is: N110MB. I think right now he's galavanting around the West Coast on his motorcycle, so he may not have updated his profile here on the new forum.

Skagit Aero Museum staff is on site all the time. You can get ahold of them through their site and see about getting time to look at their Baby Lakes.
http://skagitaero.com/aircraft/baby-great-lakes/

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Old 04-18-2012, 06:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
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Hadn't thought about staples. The nails came as part of the kit, so I'll just keep using them (in lieu of buying something else). And for the gussets on the flipside of the rib, I don't use anything. I just set the whole jig on top of it overnight so enough pressure is applied to them to get a good joint.
Jay
Well, if the nails came with the kit, it's hard to say "no" to free hardware. Or pre-paid hardware as the case may be. And the nails are a whole lot prettier in the spare rib to hang on the wall.

I hadn't thought of using weight instead of nails to keep pressure on the gussets. That could save a pound or two off the empty weight. If that's working for you, I'll have to experiment with it.
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Old 04-18-2012, 06:59 PM   #8
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Thanks for the info, John. I would love to see some other planes which are already completed.

Sarge, if I'm not mistaken, the only reason for the nails is to hold the gussets in place while the epoxy cures so that you get a nice, tight joint. Clamps would normally be what you would use for woodworking, but that's not practical since the slew of gussets are all right there in your jig--no way to clamp them all up. Well, now that I think of it, maybe you could, but it might be tough. Nails are pretty easy. For the other ones, I just make sure they're all lined up correctly, then just very carefully set the jig on the rib, so as not to knock any of the gussets out of whack. Seems to be working really well. The joints look nice 'n' tight (i.e., the gussets seem tight to the spruce), and the weight isn't so much that you get excessive squeeze out.

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Old 04-19-2012, 01:14 PM   #9
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Sarge, if I'm not mistaken, the only reason for the nails is to hold the gussets in place while the epoxy cures so that you get a nice, tight joint.
Yeah, that's what they taught us at A&P school. I think there is a minimum recommended pressure on a wood joint while it cures. Let me dig into my textbooks and get back to you on that...
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:20 PM   #10
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FYI, my jig is built out of 3/4" MDF and is around 8" x 48", so it probably weighs a few pounds. Seems just about perfect for holding the gussets in place while the epoxy cures.

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Old 04-20-2012, 05:50 PM   #11
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According to AC 43.13-1B para 1-10, "Use the recommended pressure to squeeze adhesive out into a thin, continuous film between wood layers. This forces air from the joint and brings the wood surfaces into intimate contact... Typical pressures when using resorcinol may vary from 125 to 150 psi for softwoods and 150 to 200 psi for hardwoods. Insufficient pressure or poorly machined wood surfaces usually result in thick bond lines, which indicate a weak joint, and should be carefully guarded against. Some epoxy adhesives require much less clamping pressure to produce acceptable joint strength. Be sure to read and follow the manufacturer's instructions in all cases."

I'm using resorcinol, so it looks like I'd better stick with the hardware. My guesstimate on gusset area is at least 12 sq in, and at 125 psi, I'd have to weight the gussets down with at least 1500 lb. Which is about triple what I'm aiming for as the empty weight of my Baby.

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Old 04-21-2012, 06:47 AM   #12
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Interesting info, Sarge. Thanks!

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Old 04-21-2012, 07:40 AM   #13
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I did my jig the exact same way, but i couldnt find those @&"?%#! pins anywhere! So stupid me, i got 6' of steel rod and cut and ground each one by hand. But, in doing so, figured out how to turn an angle grinder into a bench grinder. Its the little things in life!

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Old 04-21-2012, 01:32 PM   #14
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Hi Jay

Congrats on getting started on the build.

I'm not sure how far along you are with the building of the ribs.

If I were to do mine all over again I'd first cut the profile of the spars and use a small cross section piece of the spar in the jig so that you are building the jig around the spars you have instead of having to cut the spars to the openings you've made.

Jerry

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Old 04-21-2012, 05:59 PM   #15
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A false spar in the jig is the smart way. Pins for all the tight areas.

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Old 04-22-2012, 01:10 AM   #16
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I'm finishing a BL project I purchased. One mod I'm going to do which you might want to consider at this point is to build a torque type tube to connect the rear flying surfaces to the control stick. I think it will be a lot tighter and smoother than with the wires and pulleys that are per the planes.

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Old 04-22-2012, 01:31 PM   #17
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Yes torque tubes are much easier too make less brackets less moving parts and less maintenance! That is the first upgrade I do. That and loose the jackscrew trim setup, also add additional tail front wire.

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Old 04-22-2012, 05:07 PM   #18
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Btro0515, Initially, I went to Home Depot looking for those pins, but they didn't have them. They suggested doing what you did, but I wasn't too interested in that--lots of work! There's a place in Tacoma called "Tacoma Screw" which I figured might have them. They did. More expensive than how you did it, but super easy!

Jerry, The spars are a bit longer than necessary, so I cut out a piece of each one about an inch long and made those part of my jig. You'll see it in the photographs on my blog. I also used feeler gauges for the spacing. Those work perfectly.

bikerabbi/liljohn, Can you explain that in a bit more detail (or give me link or two)?

liljohn, How would you do the trim (?) and please elaborate on the additional tail front wire.

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Old 04-23-2012, 05:38 AM   #19
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I use a trim tab now and the front wire is connected to the front of the vertical fin with a weld in bushing right in line with the one on the tail post. And connect to horizontal at the front edge with a weld in bushing there on outer rib line. Then down to fuselage rear mount. This took care of the vibration/buffeting that occurred when pulling g's. There has never been a failure, but it was very unnerving for me to see and hear the horizontal vibrating. And even after I went too the super/buddy horizontal I still experienced it but not as bad. Then I was watching some bushplanes doing some extreme take off practice and noticed the buffeting of the tail on them under heavy load and decided it was maybe more with the jackscrew arrangement. So came the change for me. Now all the babies I do will have the change, currently building two new planes. LJ

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Old 04-23-2012, 06:09 AM   #20
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LJ, Could you post some photos?

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Old 04-23-2012, 10:55 AM   #21
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Quote:
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Yes torque tubes are much easier too make less brackets less moving parts and less maintenance! That is the first upgrade I do. That and loose the jackscrew trim setup, also add additional tail front wire.
My 0-235 Super Baby uses the jack screw for trim and single brace wires on tail. There has been no tail vibrations while pulling G .
The jack screw on stab is a powerful trim.

I considered a push pull tube to elevator but my seat base is narrowed and lowered into belly leaving only enough room for cables underneath.
Modernising the ailerons and reducing wind buffet in pit is my project.....trying a clam shell type cockpit door like a Knight Twister.
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:25 AM   #22
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I had a look at my Super Baby tail bracing and managed to twist the front of stabiliser by hand.

Even though my tail does not appear to vibrate pulling G's I think liljohn makes a good point about using another brace wire at front of stabiliser and fin.
I will be doing this mod now before I recover fuselage.



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