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Old 09-09-2017, 09:14 AM   #1
Wurzel
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Default Acroduster Landings

Hi guys, I'm wondering if you fellow Acroduster pilots could give me some hints on landings.. At the moment I fly the approach at 80 mph, bleeding off the speed as I cross the threshold and straightening up from the sideslip. The problem I'm finding is that either I'm landing too fast and end up bouncing along the runway, or if I really hold it off to kill all the speed then the tailwheel hits first.

Anyone got any tips for me?

Many thanks,


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Old 09-09-2017, 10:20 AM   #2
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Sounds like you need to add gap seals to the horizontal stabilizer or VGs to the underside of the horizontal stabilizer or both.


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Old 09-09-2017, 12:23 PM   #3
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Problem is the gear is too short, like many is not most of the E-AB aircraft I've flown. I get the 3-point sight picture and use that to land. Not much of an issue on grass but on hard surface, yes you will tend to ship along until the speed bleeds off since you are touching down above stall speed.

I find it hard to look at ASI on landing but the couple times I've looked it was around 60 IAS even though my plane stalls at 50 IAS. Not much you can do about it short of building a longer gear. I've shortened my tail spring to get the 3-point closer to full stall attitude but still not enough . That helps some for my airplane @ 1320# gross but probably not a good idea with a full weight airplane and still not full stalled/3- point anyway......?

I have the same problem with my tu-holer. My S1C was the same. My mentor's S1S had a longer gear.

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Old 09-09-2017, 01:01 PM   #4
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Easy way to gain height is tires. Maybe go from 6.00x6 to 8.00x6. Or if you're 8.00x6 already go to 8.50x6.

I'm going to 8.50x6 exactly for that reason. To help get the deck angle alittle more in that magic range of 11-12 degrees that Stardusters seem to like per Dave B. Plus swinging a 88"-93" prop I want some extra space anyway.

The 8.50x6 is about a 22" diameter tire. I believe the 8.0x6 is about a 18" (have to check). But it will give you about 2-3 more inches...but alas the tires weigh more than just building the right gear. (For me I wanted the bigger tires anyway as it going to a much larger style wheel pant. Like on the Culp Special)
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Old 09-09-2017, 05:37 PM   #5
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My Skybolt & the Sonerai I had, I always "hook" the tailwheel first.
If your gear isn't real springy, when the mains come down, you just lost a few degrees of AOA.
Never had a problem bouncing, and they don't try to fly again.

YMMV...
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Old 09-11-2017, 09:25 PM   #6
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I tend to hit tailwheel slightly first in the Champ when I'm doing it right. Obviously the wrong number of wings, but a datapoint. Full up-elevator on the Champ produces about the right landing attitude though, so I get to cheat and just pull back to the stops.
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Old 09-11-2017, 10:15 PM   #7
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Interesting discussion, if it were me I would first check the horizontal stabilizer. There is a pitch up moment from the wing that is counter acted by an upward force on the stabilizer. If the horizontal stabilizer stalls first the nose will pitch up and the tail will hit first. You can make the stabilizer more efficient by changing its angle of incidence or by adding gap seals. A Gap seal can be made with two pieces of 3 inch wide tape , fixed together so that there is 1 inch of sticky side opposite each other. This double sided tape is just added to the gap between the elevator and horizontal stabilizer. The cost of trying this is less than 10 US dollars. VGs can also be added to make it more effective, you can get a good set from ACS for less than the price of larger tires. VGs on the underside of the horizontal stabilizer will also change the aircraft's neutral point giving a wider range for the CG.
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Old 09-12-2017, 12:20 AM   #8
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Interesting, I'm glad to see others have bouncing landing issues. Every once in a while I do a really nice one though.
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Old 09-12-2017, 12:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PGE2015 View Post
Interesting discussion, if it were me I would first check the horizontal stabilizer. There is a pitch up moment from the wing that is counter acted by an upward force on the stabilizer. If the horizontal stabilizer stalls first the nose will pitch up and the tail will hit first. You can make the stabilizer more efficient by changing its angle of incidence or by adding gap seals.
The horizontal tail on any aircraft keeps it from pitching down, not up. Remove the horizontal tail inflight and the airplane will pitch down due to the CG being ahead of the center of lift. I don't follow the incidence and VG comments. The OP is describing standard stuff for pilots of any tailwheel airplane that sits on the ground flatter than the stall attitude. Just requires practice or giving up and becoming one of those wheel landers.
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Old 09-12-2017, 01:00 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PGE2015 View Post
Interesting discussion, if it were me I would first check the horizontal stabilizer. There is a pitch up moment from the wing that is counter acted by an upward force on the stabilizer. If the horizontal stabilizer stalls first the nose will pitch up and the tail will hit first. You can make the stabilizer more efficient by changing its angle of incidence or by adding gap seals. A Gap seal can be made with two pieces of 3 inch wide tape , fixed together so that there is 1 inch of sticky side opposite each other. This double sided tape is just added to the gap between the elevator and horizontal stabilizer. The cost of trying this is less than 10 US dollars. VGs can also be added to make it more effective, you can get a good set from ACS for less than the price of larger tires. VGs on the underside of the horizontal stabilizer will also change the aircraft's neutral point giving a wider range for the CG.
No, just the opposite. The wing has a negative (nose down) pitching moment, which is counteracted by the tail's downforce. This is a necessary condition for static stability. If the tail stalls the nose will drop. VGs on the tail don't change the neutral point at all, they just delay the tailplane stall give you more elevator authority. But the tail should never stall on a well designed airplane.
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Old 09-12-2017, 05:28 AM   #11
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If the gear is too short how much of an issue it is also depends on the gear, My Tu-holer's bungees are pretty soft, when it settles tail first the gears absorbs the load w/o any bounce. My Acrodusters gear is quite stiff and if I drag the tail in on hard surface I might hear a chirp, chirp as the main gear finds itself but no real issue since it tracks so well and speed bleeds off so fast anyway.

As with many E-AB's each is an individual. Mine is a ***** cat.....
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Old 09-12-2017, 12:16 PM   #12
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Old 09-12-2017, 03:43 PM   #13
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Just because the airplane touches down at a speed that's higher than 3-point attitude doesn't mean you should always float down the runway or bounce. With practice, you should be able to manage your descent so you arrive at your target touch down spot in a power-off condition in 3-point attitude. Since the airplane isn't fully stalled in that condition, you should be able to make a very gentle touchdown as you bleed bleed off airspeed to arrest the descent. The trick is to relax the back pressure on the stick at the moment of touchdown, versus the traditional "pull it back in your lap" movement that's common on some of the older style ships with a gear that's long enough to match up with the stall speed.
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Old 09-12-2017, 04:22 PM   #14
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Exactly. Instead of pulling in back into my lap, I hold what I've got and a few moments later as speed bleeds I can then bring it on back to keep load on the tail wheel........ at least every once in a while when I manage to do it correctly.
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Old 09-13-2017, 12:53 AM   #15
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I'm still trying to get the hang of landing my SD1. With 7-something hours since I got the new gear done, today I almost felt like I knew what I was doing (the new gear is 4" longer and straight, unlike the old gear). But the past few days have been near dead calm, which is a great help in deciphering what I'm doing vs. what the wind is making the plane do.

Rick, your comment was very helpful today.
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Old 09-13-2017, 07:37 PM   #16
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Hey Dana, congratulations on making progress. I'm glad my comment helped. Just remember, it wouldn't be nearly as much fun if it was easy! Hang in there, keep practicing, and post pictures of your plane when you can.
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:32 PM   #17
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I did "OK" the first several hours with my Duster and then it came together. Hang in there.


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