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Old 10-30-2017, 12:09 PM   #1
billdit
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Default Using Acroduster 2 fuselage to build SA100

I have been looking in on the forum since 2012 but this is my first post. I started building an Acroduster 2 in 1977 and got as far as welding up the fuselage, landing gear and tail assembly. Well 40 years later I am not really thinking about aerobatics anymore but still love the starduster look, especially after seeing Dave Baxters current project. So I thought I would ask for opinions on using my fuselage (with some mods) to build a single place AD SD hybrid. I know the AD fuse is heavier but I don't know how much. I know buying a flying biplane is probably the way to go but I like building. Anyway I may order a set of plans from AS and do some comparing. Thanks in advance for your ideas and for all the enjoyable reading I have been able to do on this forum.


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Old 10-30-2017, 12:30 PM   #2
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I like the idea. Plausible. If I had to be in a crash in a tube fuselage airplane the AD II would be a good choice for survive-ability.


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Old 10-30-2017, 12:47 PM   #3
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Look at what Smizo did with his AS II.
I have an ASII and it has been flown in single place mode exclusively for the first year.
Gives you bigger engine options, right?
Go for it.
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Old 10-30-2017, 12:52 PM   #4
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What’s your goal? Or better question, why not just finish the AcroDuster Too? Are you thinking adding more wing area or? Just because it’s “aerobatic” doesn’t mean it has to be flown to +6-6 every flight. (As I’m sure you fully understand just sayin’) your chances of finishing are MUCH greater if you stick to the plans at least on the major structural parts. I’m just not sure what what you’d gain or what you’d change and for what end result goal? I’m thinking your goal (of a Sunday, FlyIn type flier) could be a AcroDuster Too?
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Old 10-30-2017, 02:00 PM   #5
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I would do what Jack did and just make a single seat Acroduster 2. Or get his. I think chasing all the measurements changes would be crazy. I would rather make a parasol out of it like Acey Ducey mix than a smaller plane like a SA100.
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Old 10-30-2017, 05:00 PM   #6
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Billdit My thought would be the same as TFF1's in that just build it as a light single place Acroduster. The airplane is a tank, and way overbuilt compared to the Pitts S-2 so a lot could easily be changed to make it lighter and simpler for single pilot flying, and still have a very nice looking and attractive airplane. Also thanks for your comment regarding my SA-100 build, I sometimes think that few seem to have much interest in what I am trying to do in a retro of Lou Stolps N2314C, and never know unless one comments. Dave
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Old 10-30-2017, 05:57 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TFF1 View Post
I would do what Jack did and just make a single seat Acroduster 2. Or get his. I think chasing all the measurements changes would be crazy. I would rather make a parasol out of it like Acey Ducey mix than a smaller plane like a SA100.

Not that I'm bias, I agree with TTF1 that chasing the changes necessary would be a nightmare. The result would be heavier than necessary for the resulting wing area. I really think keeping the AD2 wings is a better idea. Since my fuselage was already covered I couldn't cut much weight either. You may be able to come in even lighter than I did.
.
The obvious solution would be purchase an existing AD2 with AWC that is LSA compliant. Like mine which is for sale.(edit, well maybe not after all?) There is still weight to be lost and mods to make it better. If I was in the position to keep it I'd install a O320 on a slightly longer mount. Lose the spats and pants, lighter skins etc. Depending on pilot/passenger weight 2 place is also still an option retaining LSA compliance(if you wish.)

The AD2 at resulting slower cruise still has the wing incidence/visibility issue but longer mount-getting CG further forward might help.

I still think my idea is/was a good one, better than a AD2 with SA100 wings.

edit

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Old 10-30-2017, 09:10 PM   #8
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Hey Buildit:


Where are you located and how old are you?

pm sent

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Old 10-30-2017, 10:43 PM   #9
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Knight Twister is correct about AD2 strength. Owner walked away from this one.

Jack
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Old 10-31-2017, 12:51 AM   #10
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First I would like to thank all of you for your replies. I did not expect that many that quick !
I like the size of the AD but being built heavy and with the symmetrical airfoil I thought the SD would be quite a bit lighter and easier to handle. Not sure where that much weight could be cut on the AD. For now this is just in the thinking about it stage. My only experience in a biplane was a ride Jim Osbornes 260 hp AD at Flabob in 1978. Going from a Piper J5 to that was a thrill to say the least.
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Old 10-31-2017, 01:13 AM   #11
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My sa100 is about 820#. Oddessy battery and toyota starter, no alt.

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Old 10-31-2017, 01:46 AM   #12
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My plans say 1050# with a 200 Lycoming. Seems like they always come out heavier than the plans.
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Old 10-31-2017, 01:47 AM   #13
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My SA750 is 900# with Oddessy 680 and LW starter, no alt. That's with front controls removed.

I was concerned about the airfoil but found it quite tame at lighter weight. But although stall is 51 IAS it is still a high drag biplane, comfortable approach speed better be above 80 IAS,

One thing the SA750 can do that the SA100 can not is easily convert to a two place airplane.

IMO build one or the other. SA750 w/SA100 wings is a bad idea.
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Old 10-31-2017, 12:02 PM   #14
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So it looks like the AD could be built as light as 900#. You all are probably right about trying to make too many changes. Would changing the airfoil be worth it? Will. I am 61 and live in Nebraska. Lotahp you are correct a Sunday flyer but I want it to be lively. Also I want to finish what I started even though it's maybe not he wisest choice. Dave your projects and posts helping others has been a big inspiration for me and I am sure many others even if they are not posting. I always felt I should be actually building or at least serious about starting up again to post. Jack I have also followed your project with great interest and have recieved much inspiration from you as well. Any suggestions where I could shed a little weight besides the front pit controls?
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Old 10-31-2017, 12:37 PM   #15
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Where to save weight? Frankly I'm no magician. Pay attention to detail and don't add anything extra. I don't think the basic airplane weighs "that" much? Sure it's a tank but shaving tubing size will buy you how much and I don't know here it would be safe to shave? I was surprised at how light it turned out. When compared to the prototype where did the almost 200# savings come from.....?

Lighter-smaller engine, FP prop, no invert oil, LW starter, no generator, lighter battery, stripped front pit, minimum of formers. It all adds up but doesn't seem to be that much. And I used real scales, not stolen from the bathroom.

I've always thought the M6 airfoil might be better for my purposes but it may not be simple to do? I'd also consider changing wing incidences but wonder if too many changes will snowball into something unworkable.......like not having sufficient incidence adjustment on horz. stab. or something?

And again, my AD2 at it's lower weight is well behaved. More so than I would have though based on hat some folks had said. Like an "abrupt" stall w/o warning. Maybe the case @ 1800# but I found it to be a relative P....cat @ 500# less. I'm simply too dumb to deviate too far from basic plans anyway.

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Old 11-02-2017, 12:38 AM   #16
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Thank you for the advice. Somewhere I read that a SD 1 weighed 700#. It sounds more like 800+ , so 900 for the AD doesn't seem that bad. I'm thinking now it would be best to stay with the plans and try to keep it as light as possible. I did buy all of the aluminum extrusions and preformed trailing edges as well as all of the an hardware listed on the back of the drawings. It sounds like some of those materials are obsolete now and I am sure 1977 prices were a little more reasonable. I have the rod ends for the cabine struts but I would rather make them like the SD.
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Old 11-02-2017, 12:58 AM   #17
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IMHO finish her as an ADIi but single place since that is what you started. Trying to make it a SD-100 is just not going to be something you will be happy with. Heavy it will be.
If you want the build one scratch or find one that needs rebuilding or just buy one flying.
Could sell your your ADII and give another builder a chance to finish her as what she was intended to be.
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Old 11-02-2017, 11:51 AM   #18
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Seems to be the conseince of opinions. Maybe a SA 900 would be closer to a AD in design since they are both JIm Osborne’s. Just didn’t want to lose all the time and expense that I have already invested and projects I assume are hard to sell unless at bargain prices.
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Old 11-03-2017, 05:54 PM   #19
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Funny but projects are next to worthless it seems...unless ya want one that is. I’d build a light AcroDuster Too. Sounds like built light and to Plans will meet your goals nicely.
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Old 11-03-2017, 09:38 PM   #20
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Quote: Maybe a SA 900 would be closer to a AD in design since they are both JIm Osborne’s.

Bulldit This is not quite true, the SA-900 was a Lou Stolp design that Jim Osborne inherited after buying Stolp aircraft in 1973. It was a take off of the the SA-500 Starlet as both fuselages were almost identical. It came about after Lou seeing the interest in Der Jager D-IX by Marshall White wanted a low cost small single place Biplane. Yes his name is on the drawings and he did finish them. But his focus after acquiring the company was on the aerobatic quality of the Acroduster Too and the Acroduster One. He did have an airplane at Oshkosh every yr he owned the company, and promoted them, as aerobatic mounts. He also took the SA-100 plans off the market citing they were inadequate which was true, but this was mostly so as not to compete with the SA-700 Acroduster One. As for the Starlet and V-Star did little to promote either the SA -500 Starlet or the SA-900 V-Star, and both became obscure home built airplanes with less than 50 of each ever built. Nor would he have promoted the SA -300 Starduster Too, had it not become a force to be reckoned with and one that could not be ignored. Just my view for the record. Dave
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Old 11-04-2017, 01:08 PM   #21
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Thanks Dave. It’s interesting to know how the V star was developed. I assumed it was a JO design and used similar construction methods ( aluminum extrusions,wing fittings, etc.) I spent a lot of my time at Oshkosh back in the 70s earlier 80s wearing out the grass around the Starduster lineup.
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Old 11-04-2017, 02:27 PM   #22
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I think it would be helpful to state the whole aircraft mission with yours. Saving money is not really valid as it costs just about the same amount of money to build a 19 ft wing as a 24 ft one. If you want it to be a floater, as much as a biplane can be, changing to a M6 or a 23012 airfoil with the correct wing platform would be better than putting a small wing on a big fuselage. Chopping up your fuselage to fit a smaller plan would be a mess and probably turn it to scrap. Size wise they all take up just about the same amount of hangar space unless given a really small spot. Unless you are powering with a O-200 or 0-235, any other engine bigger than those will fly it. LSA? Each aircraft built has to pass on its own merits; Jack proved it could be done on his, but a heavy SA-100 might not. Whatever you're looking for is more than physical, it seems.
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Old 11-05-2017, 01:33 AM   #23
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Just trying to build something that I will be able to fly as I get older. I am 61 now. I have around 200 hours in cub types so no experience with a small biplane. I thought the AD might be a little hard to handle in its original weight and hp with the symmetrical wing. My thinking was to shorten the AD fuselage so it would be about the same as the sa 100. The only cost savings would that I could use what I already have built. I think the better idea would be like you said just change the airfoil and keep it as light as possible. I know there are a lot of other options but I want a biplane!
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Old 11-05-2017, 02:48 AM   #24
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Your best bet is to get use to how a biplane flies. They all fly about the same in respect to drag. Stall is a funky number in a biplane. It can be falling like a rock but not be stalled. Easy handling in a magazine article is hard to quantify when the writer has a couple of thousand hours in type. Find someone to gets some rides, and build fast. If you are going to be 70 when you finish it, you want to already know how to fly it, not just starting to learn.
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Old 11-05-2017, 05:29 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TFF1 View Post
Your best bet is to get use to how a biplane flies. They all fly about the same in respect to drag. Stall is a funky number in a biplane. It can be falling like a rock but not be stalled. Easy handling in a magazine article is hard to quantify when the writer has a couple of thousand hours in type. Find someone to gets some rides, and build fast. If you are going to be 70 when you finish it, you want to already know how to fly it, not just starting to learn.
The above is about as profound a statement regarding small biplanes as I can imagine.

Two general observations.

One doesn't know what he doesn't know. Get some biplane time!

I don't think I can remember when I didn't know about biplanes?

Airfoils? I don't think it makes much difference at a lower weight with "enough" wing? I as worried about the AD2 but shouldn't have been.

Funny.......You would think there would be a difference between a Pitts S2C at gross and my AD2 at 1250#. Doing circuits and bumps there wasn't a dimes worth of difference. Speeds
are different but they handle the same. Both will float if a little bit fast but not for long.

Get busy! Life is too short!!!


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