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Old 10-10-2017, 08:15 PM   #126
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A note to let you know I've just amended my post #116. I've added a couple observations and tightened (I hope) my arguments.


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Old 10-10-2017, 08:58 PM   #127
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Wil, a question; is there a large input of rudder still applied? If so, there will be a yaw element. Pull up grassroots snap videos, his almost always finish on the flight path.
If there is a pitch up and discernible yaw to completion of rotation it'll be graded


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Old 10-11-2017, 01:24 AM   #128
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Good point. I've been focused on the pitch component of this issue, which I'm pretty sure I can reduce to zero after the snap starts.

There has to be some yaw, of course, but nowhere near as much as in my Pitts. The rudder is strangely ineffective, compared to the Pitts. I suspect that's why the conventional technique doesn't work as well as the technique described by Steve Johnson. So there's a component of yaw in the snap, but once the snap is started and then I set the pitch component to near zero the yaw is not enough to make the motion of the nose appear from inside the plane as much different than in an aileron roll.

Alan Cassidy explained to me that the effectiveness of the rudder depends more on fuselage shape than on rudder size. My plane has a long, tall fuselage to resist yaw and very little ahead of the yaw axis to promote yaw, compared to a Pitts. For example, unless I'm banked at least 30 degrees, I don't have enough rudder to get the nose out of the way so I can see the runway if I try to slip the plane straight in on final.

Maybe I should repeat the gist of Steve Johnson's article. For an inside snap the rudder input is started and the stick is yanked back simultaneously, and enough opposite aileron is added to prevent the developing yaw from causing any roll. Without any pause, when the pitch is right the stick is snapped forward and about halfway to the side.

In my experience the snap always breaks just as the stick reaches neutral elevator and half aileron. This is hard to reconcile with what I thought I knew about how snaps work.

In my original version of this post and an earlier post I added some half-baked theories about why this technique works better than the conventional technique, then deleted them as irrelevant to the issue I'm trying to address. I apologize if anyone saw them and wanted to comment on them.

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Old 10-11-2017, 02:25 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs14855 View Post
The first time I flew the Extra 230 my first thought was this airplane is so easy compared to the Pitts it should be against the law. Second though what a fantastic snapping airplane.
I wonder how 230 compares with 300S/L? Better, worse?
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:43 AM   #130
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Wes, at your suggestion, I just watched that snap. The last 30 degrees is clearly aileroned. You can see it in the neutralized rudder and the slowed rotation rate. You were generously awarded 3-4 more points than you deserved. congratulations.

regards,
Craig.

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The Judges are not to care about a competitor's energy issues. That is the competitor's problem. The Judge only cares about the presentation of the figure and its conformance to the grading criteria in chapter 8 of the Official Contest Rules. Snaps are a figure that demonstrates the competitor's skill at negotiating those two concerns. Which is what a competition is about. Do a better job, earn a higher score.

I have gotten enough e-mail about competitors' getting away with "fake snaps" that it was an item in my Saturday Judges Brief at Nationals and I will be putting questions on snaps on the 2018 R&C Exam.

I am a mere biplane driver but if you want to see a snap that earned 7.5's and 8.0's, you can go to the Nationals videos and view my last figure on my Free, which is the 2nd video of my flights in the list, and the last figure combination starts with a snap. The "jump" at the start, due to my imperfect coordination of foot and hand, earned the downgrade.

See you at the box,

Wes
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Old 10-11-2017, 04:50 AM   #131
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Wil, a question; is there a large input of rudder still applied? If so, there will be a yaw element. Pull up grassroots snap videos, his almost always finish on the flight path.
If there is a pitch up and discernible yaw to completion of rotation it'll be graded
Although I replied earlier to this question, thinking about it further has caused me to recognize that I've been using terminology improperly and probably confusing readers. The description of a snap in the judging criteria would have been a better place to start.

The judging criteria refer to a conical motion of the longitudinal axis of the plane during a snap, and that's what I've been talking about too, with my rotation axis term. Looking at it objectively I can see that it's a silly (idiotic?) term to use because the more obvious meaning requires that the rotation axis be the same as the path of the plane, and a perfectly good term already exists that everyone understands.

Here's what should have written. The longitudinal axis of the plane rotates in a conical manner about the flight path during a snap, for two reasons. During an inside snap it is pitched positively relative to the path of the plane, and it is yawed away from the path as well. In my monoplane I can reduce the pitch component to essentially zero, and yaw component is smaller in my monoplane than it was in my Pitts. Thus viewing a snap from inside the plane I can make the latter portion appear the same as an aileron roll. I strongly suspect it would look the same to the judges. Since a snap done this was feels right, it is reasonable for a pilot to fly snaps this way if it can be done without penalty.

If I'm right, then any judge who knows this shouldn't downgrade a monoplane snap because the latter portion looks aileroned unless there was a detectable transition from autorotation to aileron rotation. The absence of clear conical motion is not proof of no autorotation, despite what the judging criteria claim, and the benefit of the doubt clause should prevent a downgrade. My hypothesis is that this is the reason judges either consciously or subconsciously let monoplane pilots get away with aileroning snaps.
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:02 AM   #132
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" The last 30 degrees is clearly aileroned."

You have to neutralize the rudder and slow the rotation rate to stop. As long as the airplane is still in autorotation, the control inputs can be anything. This is true of spins also. Spins are a slower rotating figure so the rule book criteria directly speaks to a "blended recovery". All snap stops are essentially "blended".

The important aspect to look at in the video is that the airplane is pitching from autorotation back to the line of flight to exit the rotation.

Monoplanes do or should do, exactly the same thing. You just might have to slow the video down to really appreciate it.

See you at the box.

Wes
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:50 AM   #133
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I have to suggest that a review of the IAC Official Contest Rules on the IAC web site would be informative. As with any sport, what the text of the rule says is what counts. For better or worse, the rule in question speaks to what the Judge sees, not what the aerodynamics are, what the pilot does, the control positions, or discussion on an internet forum. I know that some folks here are familiar with the rulebook, but many are not. Speaking from not reading the rule, or even never having actually done a snap roll in the competition box, makes one less able to contribute to an informative discussion.

Everyone is invited to join their local IAC chapter at the next Judges School, and to participate at contests, as a competitor or helper. We need more Judges and volunteers.

I will also note that the IAC Rules Committee controls the content of the rulebook. The deadline for submissions of suggestions for changes in 2018 was July 1, 2017. The IAC Board will vote in a couple of weeks at their Fall meeting on rules changes that were submitted prior to that deadline.

Thanks,

Wes

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Old 10-12-2017, 01:22 AM   #134
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If u do what Wes just said ,you will never do a good snap in a Pitts
Danny 007
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:44 AM   #135
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Man forget solar power ,iam buying a wind generator,there is enough BS and hot air coming off the BP forum to power Ny city on a cold night
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Old 10-12-2017, 04:47 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenWoodpecker View Post
I wonder how 230 compares with 300S/L? Better, worse?
I only got one flight in an early 300-two place- mid wing. I was very unimpressed. I felt it was very truck like compared to the 230.
I neglected to mention the Laser type 4 cylinder airplanes retrofitted/built with the Zivco Edge wing. The airplanes with the torque tube ailerons are not as good as the 230, the Zivco wing airplanes with the push pull ailerons are far better than the 230 because you don't have to worry about the wing coming apart.
If someone came up with an all carbon copy of the Extra 230 wing that was somewhat affordable, that wing mounted in the low wing configuration on an Extra 260 style fuselage clone would make a great airplane.
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Old 10-12-2017, 05:10 PM   #137
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The successor to the Extra 260 is the 300S, single seater, and now the 330 single seater. I don't know if they fly like trucks but if someone will loan me one I will post a report.

Also Dave Dingman built a low wing laser and had it listed for sale a while ago.

Best of luck,

Wes
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:37 PM   #138
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A extra 230 with Jon's ailerons,is a rocket ship,throw in a 2 blade prop ,and u have magic.
300 L is a dog ,like was said big truck.
Danny 007
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Old 10-13-2017, 05:05 PM   #139
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There are many people that work to make the Nationals happen. We camped next to Gary Debaun and his wife Chris and they were always out of the camper before we woke up and did not get back until after we were already asleep.
Another person who we did not get a chance to meet was Margo Chase who did the design work for the Nationals.
She died while practicing in her Panzl just before Oshkosh.
Here is a video of her;

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Old 10-14-2017, 01:09 AM   #140
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Thanks Dennis, we lost a good one!
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Old 10-14-2017, 01:14 AM   #141
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She was really a talented executive that designed a lot of really iconic logos etc. neat to see someone in her position live life beyond the board room. Absolute tragedy. Any idea of cause of accident?
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Old 10-14-2017, 01:40 AM   #142
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http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/0...2-2017-in.html
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How can you not be romantic about biplanes.
If your Father is poor it's fate, if your Father-in-law is poor it's stupidity
Wilbur Wright said he "did not have time for both a wife and an airplane."
Which is the better portion -- bondage bought with a ring,
Or a harem of dusky beauties, fifty tied in a string?
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Old 10-14-2017, 02:22 AM   #143
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Here is a really good description of the Panzl;
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How can you not be romantic about biplanes.
If your Father is poor it's fate, if your Father-in-law is poor it's stupidity
Wilbur Wright said he "did not have time for both a wife and an airplane."
Which is the better portion -- bondage bought with a ring,
Or a harem of dusky beauties, fifty tied in a string?
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Old 10-14-2017, 07:24 PM   #144
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RE: the Chase accident. Not speculating but just pointing out that the pictures tell a very different story from the witness reports which stated the airplane never recovered from a downline. The airplane obviously hit very flat, close to wings level. Impact from any kind of a downline at even moderate speed would have resulted in far more damage to the fuselage. In any event a terrible loss.
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Old 10-14-2017, 07:25 PM   #145
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Dennis-I get all your pictures but nothing from the videos???
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Old 10-15-2017, 02:48 AM   #146
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Jamie, that's what I was thinking when I read the report and why I asked if anything had been found out.
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Old 10-15-2017, 02:32 PM   #147
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Well here we go again; but high speed stall or and approximation of that would give you the same results.
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Old 10-15-2017, 03:08 PM   #148
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You know, we always try to look at how an accident happened. Its a sort of therapy and denial that we will ever make the same mistake.

But in the end, we can never know what was the state of mind or state of situational awareness of the friend who perished. Spending too much time on the end is much less productive than looking at the start of the accident.

In the case of Unlimited accidents, I am reminded of an experience the Michael Goulian had. I understand that Mike chose to practice a little higher the day of this incident. Not sure that Mike can explain why. But on a vertical downline the control stick broke off in his hand. That extra altitude allowed him to recover the airplane before it hit the ground. But I understand it was not by much. Altitude was his friend that day.

In the airshow world they advise would-be and new performers to never do a figure below pattern altitude that you have not done perfectly 100 times up high. That is not bad advice for lower experienced Advanced and Unlimited competitors.

Y'all be careful out there.

Wes
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Old 10-17-2017, 02:35 AM   #149
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I always believed that 100 times up high came from Harold Krier. For beginners, even after a spin course, I believe everything should be above 3000'. My first flat spins in the Pitts were started from 10,000 AGL.
Much of the time depending on speed and attitude, getting out of the airplane successfully below 1500' is not realistic, especially on a descending line.
John Morrisey wrote a great article about this in Sport Aerobatics. Several years ago, I have no idea of the exact date.
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Old 10-17-2017, 04:27 AM   #150
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As a neophyte I concur on the by line, there is no such thing as too high.


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