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Old 02-15-2008, 08:51 PM   #1
Mr. Lucky
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Hello,
<DIV id=ms__id14403>
<DIV id=ms__id14404>My name is Ben and my dad built a biplane in our tiny two bedroom home back in the late 50's. I grew up at airports all over the Pacific Northwest.
<DIV id=ms__id14405>
<DIV id=ms__id14406>I have spent the last year doing research on building either an F-7 or F-5 Waco. I know about as much about these aircraft as many of the original Waco owners due to the hundreds of hours of research that I have done over the last year. If I don't know it I definitely know where to find it. There are three books that were printed by the founder of the National Waco Club, Raymond Brandley. These 3 books give just about every detail of what makes up anything Waco. I own all three and can easily access any of the information that you might need.
<DIV id=ms__id14407>
<DIV id=ms__id14408>I would like to move this partial thread to a full time forum topic for anyone who wants to build a Waco. Please be forwarned that these are the most dificult biplanes that thereare to build. You will get almost no support from the Waco Aircraft shops around the country. Many have been sued by people for simply helping to provide information and I would probably feel the same if the same happened to me. However I know how to purchase plans or at least I am about as close as anyone else.
<DIV id=ms__id14417>
<DIV id=ms__id14409>I believe that we should work as a group to gain the appropriate drawings from the NASM (National Air &amp; Space Museum) Archives Division.
<DIV id=ms__id14416>
<DIV id=ms__id14415>Would everyone please check in with me so I know how many of us Waco guys are out here. I will head or help to head up this new Waco forum thread.
<DIV id=ms__id14414>
<DIV id=ms__id14413>Here is where we begin! If you have questions now is the time to ask.
<DIV id=ms__id14412>
<DIV id=ms__id14411>Ben
<DIV id=ms__id14410>



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Old 02-15-2008, 08:56 PM   #2
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Ben
Welcome to the forum. I hope you get as much out of it as I said you would. I know thereare one or two guys that are registered on here that are building Wacos. Take a look at the membership list,they have Waco listed as you do,and try to put a fire under them.


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Old 02-15-2008, 09:19 PM   #3
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Jerry,
<DIV id=ms__id17572>Thanks for dragging my butt in here. I couldn't find a good thread to work in so I decided to start one. I hope that anyone out there who wants to build a Waco of any model joins in. I have spent quite a bit of time researching the species.
<DIV id=ms__id17573>
<DIV id=ms__id17574>I hope to get a whole list of Waco builders connected in here. I need all the help I can get!
<DIV id=ms__id17575>
<DIV id=ms__id17576>Thanks for the greetings Jerry!
<DIV id=ms__id17577>
<DIV id=ms__id17578>Ben
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Old 02-15-2008, 11:59 PM   #4
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As you can see I created a Waco forum area for you. Hopefully we will get some interest.


Welcome

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Old 02-16-2008, 01:57 AM   #5
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I bought a reproduced set of Taperwing plans many years ago. They were basically copies from the public domain achives and were poor quality. Kind of made me look for another airplane to build even thoughI had a 275 jake at the time. I paid a lot of money for them and feel like I got screwed on them. Rich (somebody?)from the seattle areasold them to me and then was never available for any follow ups.I loaned them to Hale Wallace for a while, he sent them back to me about six months before he passed. Any Waco project will take a lot of work.

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Old 02-16-2008, 02:23 AM   #6
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John,
<DIV id=ms__id3724>
<DIV id=ms__id3725>Thank you. As I stated in my earlier post, I have been collecting information on building a Waco for about a year now. I have almost given up any number of times since the information is so difficult to obtain. Had it not been for my diligence in sticking with this I probably would have moved on to build a Skybolt Radial which was my second choice. In doing research on the Bolt I ran accross Jerry. Jerry and I have talked on and off now for a couple of months and he kept at me about joining the forum. With the difficulty in obtaining build information on the Waco I finally conceded that Jerry might be on the right track.
<DIV id=ms__id3726>
<DIV id=ms__id3727>Don't get me wrong I have the utmost respect for the Waco community and I am a member of the National Waco Club who has given me as much support as possible. However, they are owners of what many people including myself, considerto be one of the most important biplanes in the history of our country. They are purists and rightly so since there were only so many Waco's built and even less today are still airworthy. Building a Waco from the over200 or soconstruction drawings that make up a complete set of drawings is by far a monumental venture. The Clark Airfoil Wing structure has 11 separate wing ribs.
<DIV id=ms__id3729>
<DIV id=ms__id3728>I wantany and allcomers to completely understand that unlike most homebuilt biplane designs the Waco was never designed to be a homebuilt. Meaning that almost all of the designdetails are extremely difficult and almost all Waco's are built and restored by well seasoned and accomplished airplane builders. As most biplane homebuilders should have read by now that most of the biplane designs currently on the market were at least partiallydesigned for ease of construction such as constant cord wings.
<DIV id=ms__id3730>
<DIV id=ms__id3731>I am convinced that there are numerous individuals out there who would love to build one of these trulybeautiful aircraft and have simply given up and switched to other more easily obtainable plans and support. I have the basic outline and most of the information for ordering original Waco construction drawings from the NASM and would be glad to help anyone who is interested in obtaining drawings and working as a group to support one another in the construction ofsome ReplicaWaco Biplanes. I believe that as a group numerous heads are better than one and a small group of individuals will greatly increase our odds for success.
<DIV id=ms__id3733>
<DIV id=ms__id3732>So, thank you again for theforum areaand I look forward to a new group ofindividuals who want to joint the new Waco section of the Biplane Forum.
<DIV id=ms__id3735>
<DIV id=ms__id3734>Welcome, and as Jerry might say "Let's make sawdust".
<DIV id=ms__id3739>
<DIV id=ms__id3738>Sincerely,
<DIV id=ms__id3737>
<DIV id=ms__id3736>Ben

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Old 02-16-2008, 03:31 AM   #7
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Kevin,
<DIV id=ms__id5166>You are correct that any Waco project is a tremendous amount of work. I remember talking with that person a while back. He has relocated and lives down in Oregon somewhere. I am dissapointed that anyone would get cheated where it comes to biplane building. I looked at your page and we are both 52 years young. I grew up with a dozen biplane guys who all flew air shows together all over the pacific NW and I am a strong believer in your word is your bond. These guys all believed in helping one another. If someones plane needed a major fix you would find everyone coming in and helping out because they knew the reverse would happen if their Bipe was the one in need.
<DIV id=ms__id5167>
<DIV id=ms__id5168>Quite allot of the Waco drawings that are going around out there are copies of copies of copies and quite a few pages are very hard to figure out. My suggestion to anyone buying existingdrawings would be to make sure that you know where the drawings come from. Quite a few of these sets are only 70% or 80% readable and you should have a gentlemans agreement that should you receive certain pages that are unusable that the seller is willing to resupply you with better copies. That might be dificult because quite a few are just down right lousy. These pages should be reordered directly from the NASM. Everyone must realize these drawings are dated back into the 20's and 30's and the exact same principles of construction were used then exactly as we do it today. This is where it all began.
<DIV id=ms__id5169>
<DIV id=ms__id5170>You can purchase all of your drawings from the NASM but it is a very long process. I will gladly explain the process in detail in a later post. Part of what I would like to do is make sure the group supports one another in the way it has always been. We can all help to obtain betterdrawingsto replacepoor quality pages.
<DIV id=ms__id5172>
<DIV id=ms__id5171>The Taperwing is the speedster of the Waco line andwon quite a few of the air races back in the 20's and 30's.
<DIV id=ms__id5182>
<DIV id=ms__id5183>"During the 1928 National Air Races at Cleveland, Ohio the stunt team of 3 Waco Taperwings literally walked off with the show. The shere maneuverability displayed by these planes created intense interest". The text I have quoted from goes on to say further down; "It was at this event that R.W.Mackie borrowed a Taperwing and provided the thrill of the meet. In the gathering dusk he went aloft and did 7 consecutive outside loops, besides one that was unobserved".
<DIV id=ms__id5185>
<DIV id=ms__id5184>This was a time when the outside loop was unobtainable and a Waco was the first aircraft to perform the feet.
<DIV id=ms__id5174>
<DIV id=ms__id5173>"Gladys O'Donnell, after placing second in a Taperwing in the Santa Monica to Cleveland Derby, won the closed course race for women... actually lapping every competitor".
<DIV id=ms__id5176>
<DIV id=ms__id5175>All of these famous records were set with stock Waco Taperwings. The Taperwing is one of the most famous record setting aircraft in the history of our country. Charles A. Lindbergh flew a Taperwing and worked part time for the Waco Aircraft Company delivering Taperwings to people who had ordered them from the factory.
<DIV id=ms__id5177>
<DIV id=ms__id5178>The JYM model Taperwing was one of the first US Mail carriers and to see the one restored here http://www.americanwacoclub.com/2002_Photos_c.htm
<DIV id=ms__id5179>should turn any biplane nut's head. In fact if I could easily get a set of these drawings I would probably build one. These are much simpler in construction than any of the F-Series models that most people view as a Waco. Here are some others.
<DIV id=ms__id5180>http://www.americanwacoclub.com/2002_Photos.htm
<DIV id=ms__id5181>
<DIV id=ms__id5186>If you want to fly a piece of history and you want something that will easily be worth as much as $200K when it is completed. Then build a Waco, but anything worth this much is going to be a giant endeaver.
<DIV id=ms__id5191>
<DIV id=ms__id5192>Here are a couple of key points. Waco's have an approximate wingspan of 30 feet and almost every model seats THREE. One in the rear pilot's cockpit and two on the small bench seat in the front pit. These are the open cockpit models. There are also numerous Cabin Wacos.
<DIV id=ms__id5190>
<DIV id=ms__id5189>Anyone who would like more information is welcome to contact me. I love to talk Waco's.
<DIV id=ms__id5188>
<DIV id=ms__id5187>Ben

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Old 02-16-2008, 12:27 PM   #8
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Thank you for the pic link. I grew up on a small airport where my Dad was the FBO. One of the airplanes we were responsible forwas the care of a UPF 7.It was a dog by '60's standards as it was war surplus but it flew great and provided many years of fun. I don't have a lot of deep knowledge of any paticular Waco model but I love 'em all. I especially like looking at the details of the weldments and fabrication work that was done by careful craftsman in the '20's. One thing I found interesting was the fuselage tube centerlines don't meet as done on later designs. I also noticed that Waco used the same basic fuselage design for many models changing the shape with formers and stringers for whatever met their needs for that model. In the early '90's I had the pleasure of touring the Waco plant in Lansing when I flew into the Lansing airport on a charter.I asked the ground controller which building was the Waco facility and she pointed it out and told me they welcome guests for short tours. It was a opportunity to take in more information with my eyes and absorbing as much as I could in a short time. My second job is in welding/fabrication and in looking over the various Waco models the weldments are not difficult with the fuselage tubes being large diameterand the fuselages are physically big so that makes them easier to work on however other components such astorque tubesockets and landing gear attach fittings etc. are cast and/or forged and not easy for the homebuilder to reproduce.I'm not a patient woodworker so I leave that task to the experts.( I work on Cub replicas with alum. spars and ribs just for that reason)Now you have done it, I'm going to dig out those drawings and look them over again. I will only be an observer though as I don't think a scratch built Waco is in the cards for me. Thanks, Kevin

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Old 02-16-2008, 01:28 PM   #9
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Weaver Aircraft Company of Ohio as I recall. Responsible for some of the most graceful shapes in the air. I wish you well in your efforts.

Years ago I worked with a welding instructor from the Hobart company who had learned the trade from a guy that had worked as a welder at WACO. When the factory closed it was ordered that all the drawings be disposed of.

He had the foresight to retrieve the drawings either all or in part from the dumpster and those are the drawings that made it to NASM.

So goes the legend.

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Old 02-16-2008, 10:24 PM   #10
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Kevin,
I have an idea but my boss is making me work on my honey do list right now. You gotta keep piece you know?


Find your drawings and make me a list if every drawing you have. Waco Drawings are numbered in the bottom right hand corner and have a drawing name. Make me a drawings list. This is how the drawings are cataloged at the NASM. Separate the different sections; Wings, fuselage, empennage, landing gear, etc. Then list all of the page numbers and names of the pages that you feel are unfit for use. We can order the drawings list from the NASM and reorder the drawings that are bad and also check to make sure that you have a complete set for the model that you have drawings for. Once we have your set in a usable condition you should be able to sell them to someone who would like to build that particular model.


Let me know exactly what model of Waco drawings that you have and if someone will walk me through posting photos I will post a few pic's of the exact model so anyone interested can see exactly what the drawings match up to. Depending onwhatmodel you have I might even be interested in purchasing them myself.


I now have the complete drawings lists for the following Waco's; YMF-5, ZPF-7, and the UPF-7. These take approximately 10 weeks to get from your initial order at the NASM.


I would like to have at least two separate people for each model,who are actually interested in building a Waco begin ordering drawings for their particular models. There are more orders than there are librarians to fill drawings orders and to be fair to everyone I will request that only legit builders order drawings.


The NASM supports the Waco Club and visa-versaand if we are going to cheat and gang up to order drawings then we will all lose our credibility. We all can work together but it must be on good faith.


Let me know when you have your list put together.


Ben

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Old 02-17-2008, 09:01 PM   #11
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Hello all,
New to the group. Just the conversation I was looking for. I've been studying the F-2 series for about 8 years now, with the idea of doing a replica. I have a used the Smithsonian and other sources for drawings. I have 3 boxes of books and magazines that have articles or features on the F-2....clearly the first thing that needs to be done.....absolute immersion in the plane. There were two fantastic articles in Sport Aviation and Kitplanes in the '90s about 2 different UBF replicas....fantastic glimpses into what building a replica WACO is all about. The message I got from both of them was that it is totally do-able on every level....in fact Budd Davisson, the author if the Sport Aviation article,states that there is nothing about these planes that is outside the scope of a homebuilder (perhaps a bit of an overstatement from a total guru..haha!).
Anyhow, with all of my research, I am clear about the following:
1) an original is now, and for the rest of my life, out of the question. The vintage airplane market, especially the WACO corner of it, is going the way of the vintage car market....alot of superrich folk seeing these things as "investment opportunities" and the like.
2) the cost of doing a replica can be quite costly, yes...but costs can be spread over time.
3) the idea of a "new" vintage plane is fantastic...new 4130 and spruce.
4) I could never, with my skills, do one of these things from the ground up, like alot of the builders out there could. So, the idea of "kitting" a project is where I'm headed.....over time clearly. Save up, get fuse. built....save up, get gear built....etc. Yes, more expensive, but a bit more doable for a guy like me.
5) I have found enthusiasm out there among some of the shops....I've gotten quotes for fuselages, wings, ailerons, aluminum work. Doable.
6) perhaps the best thing for a potential WACO repli-builder is engine availability....220 Cont, Jacobs, etc. are all available and have networks of shops and experts that are well established...and prices are comparable to the flat stuff in many cases.
So, that is the current state of my thinking here. Doable.....know that there are experts who can do things.....and little by little. There are plans, 4130 steel tube, spruce, and engines all available. Its not like we are trying to replicate a FW-190! (Oh wait, there are some folks doing that!)
Thanks all for a great discussion!!

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Old 02-17-2008, 09:32 PM   #12
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Welcome to the Biplane Forum. I've been to Rhinebeck a few times back when Cole Palen was still living. Has to be one of my favorite places in the world. Like stepping back in time.

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Old 02-17-2008, 09:37 PM   #13
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All,


I am doing a bit of planning and will hopefully have great news for all of us. In the mean time we need to continue to collect individuals who are serious about building a Waco. I believe that the success of our group will be dependent on how many participants we can enlist. You may look through the proceedures at the NASM for drawings purchase but you will first need a drawings list and mostly a release to the NASM that states you will not be building a Waco as a "Man Carrying" aircraft.


Yes, this is utterly ridiculous but the lawyers will not allow the Smithsonian to sell drawings to anyone who states they are going to build a real aircraft. The whole reason why the owner left every shred of paper that the factory owned was explicitely for anyone like us who wanted to build a Waco.


You need to state you are building a model airplane or something else. We will cover all of this over the next week or so.


As I stated before, I already have drawings lists for the YMF-5, ZPF-7 and UPF-7. Anyone with drawings lists for other models please contact me so I can keep a list.


Anyone with any questions or comments are more than welcome.


By the way, WELCOME Pete! The UBF-2 is a beauty. If you would like I will list some of its specifications later.


Ben

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Old 02-17-2008, 10:28 PM   #14
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There is a man here in the Columbus area that owns Chapman Memorial Airfield. I remember he had built a couple of WACOs. He might have some ideas on obtaining drawings.

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Old 02-17-2008, 10:52 PM   #15
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I have the drawing lists for the QCF-2 and UBF-2 supplied by NASM. I ended up purchasing a huge amount of F-2 drawings from a guy who was 80% done with an F-2 replica. Mostly NASM-supplied, but also some other gems in there.....a huge 1/4 scale (ish?) profile arrangement view for example. Of course, if any of you guys wants copies of those drawing lists, I'd copy them for you.
One thing I'd suggest for drawings is to join the clubs....National and American WACO clubs.....great way to get in contact with people who have the drawings, etc. There arelots of drawings out there that are better than NASM copiesor ones they actually don't have. Also fantastic place to start grabbing up parts! Their classified sections have ads for all kinds of stuff......and people making new parts. I am speaking for myself here, but when I joined the the NWC, they asked if I had a WACO, and I said no, that I was interested in doing a replica....and they thought it was great. Haven't gotten any snobbery or anything thus far. Great people.
Neil...yes, Old Rhinebeck is the place that made me obsessed with old planes....starting at age 1! There are few, if any, places like it in the world. Actually where I first got heavy into the F-2. About 8 years ago, I was walking the line before a show, and there was Dan Taylor's QCF-2. The deal was then sealed!! haha.
Also, weren't there a few Taperwing kits marketed many years back from the Redman's or something? Would love to find one of those still in the crates on Ebay!!! haha.
Pete

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Old 02-18-2008, 11:22 PM   #16
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Hi Guys,


Just discovered this forum today and would like tosecond Pete'scomment for WACO builders. As most realize, these replicas are not built single-handedly, but there is help available through the WACO clubs. Check their web sites for parts' providers. Many of us buildingWACO'S offer specific parts and assemblies which we choose to duplicate in one way or another. In this way we can help each other's projects to completion. My project is a UBF-2. I provide spinners and am working on stainless steel front exhausts for W670's. Feel free to jump in and make your contribution to the supply of hard to obtain parts.


Steve

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Old 02-19-2008, 01:02 AM   #17
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Hi,


I have been a member of the NWC now for several months and the two primary people helping me have been verygracious and patient. Whenever anyone starts out into anything they obviously know very little and I have made my share of mistakes and must admit that during the learning process I havesaid some pretty stupid things. Neither one has said anything poorly to meespecially considering they don't even need to help me.


I presently have about half a set of ZPF-7 drawings that I would never have received in this short a time period if not for the one gentleman who has spent countless hours copying drawings for me. He also supplied me with three drawings lists so that if I want to order other drawings from the NASM I already have the lists to order from. He has been one of the most honorable men I have ever had the pleasure to have met. He has never given me the heave ho even though I have probably bugged the holy crap out of him by asking him about 20 zillion questions. He continues to be polite and continues to send me drawings even though I have been a pest. It is too bad that all Waco members are not like John.


I am a little unclear about the exact procedure in ordering drawings from the NASM since all of my existing F-7 drawings came from the member and not the NASM.


Have either of you actually ordered drawing sheets from the NASM and received them yet to know if you are completing the applications correctly? If so I would very much appreciate a sample of a successful order and how you went about pricing the individual sheets considering that the sheets are all priced per size and there is no listing as to drawings sizes.


For example; I have a drawing here on my desk for a model CPF-7. The drawing is number 20545 and the drawing name is "Lower Wing False Spar". I can find the drawing name and number on my UPF or ZPF drawing list but nowhere does it tell me how much the sheet costs or what the size is so that I would be able to price the drawing on my order form.


We can order 25 sheets per order so how do we order the sheets in the correct format? Can you give me some help?


As far as purchasing parts from the Waco sight goes I am sure that there are probably good guys and bad since the world is made up of both. However I did try to contact one particular shop regarding the Part No. 21884 Fitting Install - Upper Wing Front Spar Root. This drawing is probably the most daunting assembly that I could ever imagine building so I figured that the best thing to do would be to contact a wing builder and see if they would sell me the assembly's. They have a ton of experience in building these assembly's and I have none. I learned from another member that this shop did TOP QUALITY work so it was a natural progression to ask them for some help. I was not asking for free help to build the assembly. In fact I was trying to bring them my business by purchasing the parts. They weren't rude but all I got was a polite you should find a basket case to restore. If there actually were ANY basket case F-Series (especially an F-5)anywhere on the planet then their comment would have been reasonable. But everyone knows that there ARE NO basket case Waco's magically appearing anywhere and if there were they would not be for sale. They'd be in someones shop being restored.


5 Days ago the president of the club informed me that "Basket Case Waco's just don't APPEAR any more". So as far as buying parts it is my experience that shops either don't want to help or all they talk aboutis their Legal Exposure and how they can not sell parts. The one thing I have learned over the last 6 months is that Homebuilt is definitely not a word to use with either one of the Waco clubs.


I recommend that anybody who wants to build a Waco of any sort, should join the National Waco Club and get as much support as they will offer. I also believe that if you are going to build a Waco then you should support the club regardless of whether or not some of the members are helpful or not. You will find good people and bad anywhere you look.


Steven, WELCOME to our forum and can you build Wing spar root assembly's? LOL


hey, someone needs to post an accurate NASMdrawing request form.


Steve, I wasn't kidding about that assembly. If you can find a place to buy these you will have solved a huge problem for every Waco builder who joins us.


Ben

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Old 02-19-2008, 01:27 AM   #18
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Guys,


I forgot to say this. We need to put our heads together and share drawings. Most of the F-Series all use the same wings The exception is the UPF-7 which had the modified wing for the military contract. The UPF-7 wing has zero dihedral so it uses a different set of wing spars and has the larger cutout above the front pit so the instructor had better egress for bail out.


I own a 36" laser plan copier and can make drawings for a good price. If you want to, I will purchase your drawings and return you free copies provided that your copies are the first copy from NASM orders. That way I can make other copies for other members who need the same drawings and everyone gets the same quality copies. When you make copies of copies of copies you start loosing huge amounts of details. See Kevin's post above.


This way we can all get the drawings we need at a much faster rate. Instead of each builder ordering their ownseparate sets. This helps all of us plus it frees up the NASM to fill more orders because they aren't duplicating drawing copies. If you don't want to sell back your drawings to me then please help the group and make legible copies at Kinko's or a good reprographics company. Kinko's does marginal work and no one wants to get lousy drawings like Kevin did.


This is also very important; we need to all coordinate our orders so no one is ordering the same drawings at the same time. John informed me that when an order comes in and the drawing is missing from its location then that sheet is dropped from your order form and you then must order it a second time and they don't call and ask you if you'd like another drawing number. Considering the 10 week order process this loss of time is bad. So let's get our ordering coordinated.


Any comments or questions?


Ben

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Old 07-17-2008, 03:03 PM   #19
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Hi everyone,
My name is Jim, and I have 2 Wacos (a GXE, N550N,and a ATO/ASO, N709E), mostly paperwork, that need total reconstruction. My taperwing was originally built as a taperwing in 1929, then converted to a straitwing by the Finkley Brothers dusting Company in 1935, so it is registered as an ASO for now. Most of the pieces just are not there, and what I have I would replace anyway, so in short, I am scratch building them both.I have spent the last 3 years accumulating blueprints from the NASM. They are verynice folks, anddespite what you might haveread, and fully realize the printsthey send are used in the restoration and construction of flying airplanes. I havenever had any problems with the NASM, they are fantastic, but slow. Follow the process to a T. Also, just because a drawing does not appear on the drawing list does not mean they do not have it... usually they do, but many of the drawings are unsorted. The drawing list is by no meansa complete list of what they have. Also, consider revision numbers. Another unban legend is that you can not go there in person..not so, you just have to make arrangements prior to showing up.
My biggest problem so far is with the FAA... 337's for field approvals are non existant anymore. I haveaccumulated a considerable collection of prior 1955 337's for modifications to the GXE...for example I have one that allows a Cont W-670 to be used instead of the OX-5. Presenting these to my local FSDO brought howls of laughter, despite them being "approved data" and perfectly legalby definition in todays terms.Good luck getting it through OKC was the typical response. Many of the modifications are necessary more tosafety than anything else. Glue is a problem... some don't like the weldwood we used for years, yet the epoxies are not approved for TC aircraft without a field approval. It seems like just building one required a DER, which is extremely expensive to say the least. I have rebuilt more than a few airplanes and always enjoyed a great relationship with my FSDO, but now it seems like they are 1000 times more afraid of liability than the NASM.
The result of what I have learned... I think I will build them both in experimental category. I can use the airwheels with brakes instead of the 30X5's, use the W-670 or R-985 instead of the the Wright J6-7or OX-5, build the fuel and oil tanks from aluminum instead of tern plate, use stainless as a firewall instead of asbestos between galvanized sheetand on and on. Another pain is a source of flying wires. Here is an example... the drag and anti drag wires on both the straightwing and taperwing models are woven wire, looped and soldered with a turnbuckle in the middle, the blueprints call for a 2400# test, so I planned on using stainless rod with rolled threads and a clevis like every other airplane on the planet made since 1935 or so. I even have a prior approved 337 from 1990 for the exact same thing on an ASO. No dice says todays feds.
I have the redrawn prints for a taperwing ribs,but not the spar or aileron drawings. The wing attach fittings on ataperwing were a complex knuckle type of thing... probably a lot easier to donow in experimental as a strap. I have all the straightwing drawings.
Any of the 10 series (taperwing or straitwing) are a lot simpler airplane than the F series birds. Building a 10 is on par with a Skybolt, a lot easier than a pitts or Great lakes. There are a few "holes" in the blueprints, but there are enough original airplanes to look at, especially withthe poetic license in the experimental category.
I am glad to help anyone with what I have. I am planning on building a fuselage jig for the Waco10, as Ineed2,
Let me know what I can do to help.
JimEdited by: luckydad

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Old 07-19-2008, 05:03 AM   #20
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Hi Jim.


Glad you came on board. I myself had originally intended on building a Waco replica rather than going through the process of trying to find a registration that I could build under or a basket case project. Anymore the cost of a basket case costs more than most people can purchase a brand new Experimental category biplane for. I believe there are a couple for sale now, one is priced at $60,000 and the other is priced at $80,000. Both are in the condition that you would need to trailer them home rather than fly them home.


Authentic Waco's are probably the elite of the biplane crowd. You can purchase a Stearman for just around $100,000 in good flyable condition. They are indeed a beautiful airplane no matter what model you build or own. I have always loved the JYM's that were built for Northwest Airways Inc. who flew the mail service. These were beautiful examples of the Taperwings.


For anyone who is interested in building a Taperwing or one of the original Straightwings I would strongly recommend that they purchase Raymond Brandly's book "Taperwing Wacos". This book has been out of print for some time now but if you are a proficient book collector you can find one fairly reasonably through one of the few book search sites on the Internet. Any of these ships are considered the hot rods of the Waco biplanes. I have also heard from other sources that the Taperwings are easier to build than the F Series biplanes. Especially the Waco 10's.


I have for quite awhile now been in a turmoil as to whether or not to continue to search for a registration or simply build an Experimental Waco because of the freedom to build an airplane in a far better and more logical sense rather than having to stick strictly to the old ways of building,which in some cases aresomewhat lacking. Do not mistake me, there are hundreds of things that Waco did 60 plus years ago that are still used today and simply the only way to do things. However there are also many details that are undesirable. The wing fittings where the struts connect are extremely weak in comparison to other biplanes and especially if you take into consideration the size of these aircraft. I feel that these fitting should be redesigned or changed to be far stronger.


Drawings are a very important consideration in building a Waco. Most of the drawings lists are rough and do not actually include all the drawings that one needs to build an airplane. These lists are really a rough guideline to a particular model. I am not really up on the Taperwing Waco's in regards to their drawings and have always been interested in purchasing a set. However most of my plans research has been in the "F" Series aircraft.


For example, to obtain a complete set of wing drawings for an F series aircraftI believe that one shouldobtain a drawings list for the base models of each F series aircraft. (Don't quote me on this because there are holes throughout my information) Most of the F series aircraft have a "Basic Model" that the other models started from. For example bothmy UPF-7 and ZPF-7drawings lists have anote on the cover page that states;


"The following constitutes a complete list of drawings which pertain to the subject model airplane, of which Model CPF is the basic model".


My YMF drawings list states;
"The following constitutes a complete list of drawings which pertain to the subject model airplane, of which Model UMF is the basic model".



For the most part all of these aircraft utilize the same wings. There are minor variations made within each model. To obtain a complete set of drawings I have obtained drawings lists for 3 F series Waco's. I would really like to also have a drawings list for an F-2 but am hoping to find another Waco builder who might be willing to trade copies ofan F-2 drawings list for copies ofone of my otherF series lists.


In reviewing the wing drawings for these aircraft there are some cross over drawings as should be expected, but there are also a couple dozen drawings on the UPF-7 list that are not on the YMF list. The disconcerting part of this is the drawings in question say that they are also used on the UMF which is the basic F-5 model. WHY are these drawings not on the YMF list?If I were to just order the wing drawings on my YMF list I would be missing a couple dozen drawings that are critical to the construction of a complete set of wings. Therefor to actually build a Waco from plans you really need to spend a serious amount of time to research and discover what is needed.


Kevin Kimball was the first one to point this out to me. Kevin recommended that I first collect a complete set of drawings and then spend a serious amount of time going over them and learning them before I even started to build any parts. THANKS KEVIN!


That was the single most important piece of advice that I have gained over the last 18 months of research.


Granted, the average builder is not going to know what drawings to purchase simply from a list of drawings. This is why it is so important to spend the time to learn the drawings. I have never built a full scale biplane before nowbut I have found that the time that I have taken to learn my drawings, I can now see what drawings I will need to build my wings.


I will also agree with you, the NASM people are very nice and helpful if you need help figuring out your drawings. They also do realize that none of us are building toy models with the drawings, but due to the many lawsuits that come about on a regular basis the NASM must take a legal stance that says that the drawings not be used to build a man carrying aircraft. This is why we all must sign a disclaimer for our purchases of drawings.


I have done quite a bit of research on Waco drawings so if anyone out there has any questions then I would gladly point people in the right direction. My only advice is that anyone who thinks that they want to build a Waco should spend at least a couple of months doing some serious research on the aircraft before they spend a couple ofyears or so trying to purchase drawings from the NASM.


Building a Waco from scratch is not a first time builder project. After 18 months of research and a few hundred drawings from the NASM I have come to the conclusion that all those guys who told me this were probably right. Kevin Kimball was only the first one to tell me. I have since been given this sameadvice from 2 other people. The last person was a long time Waco builder. He recommended that I build a Hatz because they were originally a scaled down Waco. His advice was that I could probably get a Hatz completed in just over two years if I was diligent. This would then give me some very much needed experience building the same type of aircraft that I would be building with the Waco. In addition it would give me a fun taildragger to own and fly while I was building my Waco.


Considering all of this I could hardly refute this advice. It is going to take me a couple of years to collect a complete set of Waco drawings that I will then need to spend some time learning how everything goes together. I was also in a conundrum of an airplane to fly for the next 10 years while building the Waco. Building a Hatz gives me that experience, it also keeps me busy building a biplane while I collect my drawings. It will also give me a great biplane to fly while building my Waco.


I am presently collecting my Waco drawings from the NASM and enjoying the process. I purchased a set of Hatz Classic drawings and to support the age old Hatz group I also purchased a set of CB-1 drawings from the Hatz Society.


I will be starting my wing rib jigs within the next couple weeks. If anyone would like any information please feel free to contact me here.


Ben
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Old 07-19-2008, 10:41 AM   #21
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Hey Jim (luckydad)... Welcome.

A 330 hp Taperwing variant (ATO) would be a rocket.

I have been dealing with the Fed's for 30 years with approval's on 337's, new STC's and I have also obtained New Type Certificate's on aircraft without doing any flight testing. All this can be nearly impossible to get approved unless you know "The Way".

About 15 years ago I noticed a change in the Fed's and could see the "writing on the wall" in what was going to happen... So I learned the way!

You cannot use those 337's an approved method or approved data because it was approved before... but it can be used as a basis of approval with a little "Fed Sprinkles" spread on top.

"Fed Sprinkles" are a little more data or paperwork submitted... No Big Deal, it can be done, especially for a Waco.

Don't go experimental, you will lose 80% of the value when sold.

PM me when you are ready to do those mod's.
Dale


Edited by: dsnaproll

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Old 07-21-2008, 03:47 PM   #22
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Quick question, Precision Aero Marine is offering wing "kits" for the Waco taperwing and UPF and others... any one know anything or used their products? I have contacted them and am waiting for info.

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Old 07-23-2008, 06:57 AM   #23
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Jim,


I have to agree with Dale. Especially if you already own paperwork on two Waco's. If you did not own the paper then I would say that you would be OK with building an experimental Waco. Even though Dale is right on with his assessment of the value of the finished product. An experimental Waco would barely be worth the cost of all the parts. This is very unfortunate but for those of us who can not afford a $300,000 vintage biplane it is better than no Waco at all. Since you already own the paper on 2 Waco's then you should build one of the two aircraft.


You are correct in your assessment of the freedom that you have building an experimental version but you must weigh the differences between the freedom and the cost you would get at the time you were to sell your Waco.


Since you own the paperwork on two Waco's I would highly suggest that you build your Waco strictly to the drawings and specifications of one of those two aircraft.


There are quite a number of circumstances that must be taken into consideration before you start making sawdust. Is there anything left of the structures of either of your two Waco's? If they are wrecked, then when were they last registered. If before 1955 (exact date?) then they will not have their permanent Airworthiness Certificates. If this is the case then you will need your A &amp; P cert. to qualify to build the new aircraft. Either that or you will need to work beneath another person who does hold an A&amp; P License. This is the primary reason why I am building a Hatz first. To gain my A &amp; P so that I can build my Waco. This is what is required to build or work on a Type Certificated aircraft.


If the Waco's were wrecked after 1955 then they will already possess their permanent Airworthiness cert. and you do not need your A &amp; P to do the work.


Nonetheless most people do not own an original Waco registration and probably never will find one. If this is the case then they have the choice to try and purchase a basket case project to restore. Either that or they have the opportunity to build a replica Waco which as I stated before is better than no Waco at all.


If you are interested in selling one of your registrations then send me a PM. I would like to discuss the possibilities with you.


Regards,


Ben
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Old 07-23-2008, 08:27 PM   #24
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Hi Everybody,
Thanks for the input... here is a little followup. I talked to the owner of Precision Aero Marine, and he is indeed close to marketing a taperwing wing kit. Additionally, he has the blueprints and is capable of building the metal hardware as well..this was particularly interesting to me because my taperwing was converted to straitwing for crop dusting, and as such the hardware I have is not pertinent.
I am an A&amp;P and IA, have been for about 22 years, and have rebuilt quite a few steel tube and dope and fabric airplanes. I did a lot of maintenance, ferrying and instructing for the group in St. Louis, and was lucky enough to fly nearly all the models of Wacos, open and cabin. The taperwing is a beautiful airplane, they all were really (another personal favorite is the F-2, but it's a close second). I was also an FAA pilot examiner, for whatever that was worth, and only mentioning it because I have some knowledge in dealing with the FAA and have always got along great with them
Ben, I got to say I sort of disagree with the approach to building a Hatz to get an A&amp;P so you can build a Waco. First of all, with todays Feds...building an experimental aircraft (Hatz) does not in and of itself qualify you for your A&amp;P. If you build the Hatz alone (by yourself), with the FAA inspecting long the way, it will qualify you for a repairmans license pertinent to the Hatz. Period. No A&amp;P. If you were to work under the tutilage of an A&amp;P, then it might quality you, depending on the FSDO DAR, but if your going to do that, you might as well work on a Waco if that is your end goal. If your desire is for an A&amp;P, you generally have to work on certificated aircraft under the supervision of an A&amp;P or at a repair station. You can find out more information at faa.gov under the mechanics tab. I might suggest volunteering at a local FBO. Also, reguardless of when the airplane crashed (one of mine didn't, one did) you have to be an A&amp;P to do the work on a certificated airplane. Even if ithas not yet had a permanent airworthiness certificate issued to it, prior to the issuance of an airworthiness certificate the rebuild work and maintenanceperformed must be documented by a certified mechanic. You can, however, do the work under the supervision of an A&amp;P and have it qualify as experience, so don't let that deter you.. it's doable, just find an A&amp;P that is willing to work with you.... they are everywhere, use the keyword WACO. For clarification,look in FAR 43, applicability.
The fuselage on any of the Waco 10's is a very easy build. If you do not have it, I suggest you order drawing No 8 from the NASM. If they do not have it, they do have #4, which is nearly identical except for the engine mount and a few of the tubing diameters. I have both if you want one to peruse. ... what is not easy, or has traditionally not been easy, is building a set of taperwings, and that is why the Aero Marine stuff is so important. The straitwings are straightforward (no pun intended) but I have known more than 1 professional wing builder that has said "never again" after building a set of taperwings. The spars are tapered and swept, the ribs obviously set at an angle, the hardware is complicated and rare. I have scratch built probably 4 complete sets of Stearman wings, have every tool and resource mentioned plus...and still questioned it as being beyond my capability, or at least beyond my capacity. If Aero Marine does indeed pan out, and it seems like they will, then its a whole new ballgame, and I am really excited.
As far as experimental vs T/C. Thats a real dilema. As suggested, I know an experimental A/C does not command the same price-tag as one in Normal category. The biggest desparity, however, comes from replica vs "real". Replicas are the least desirable... even though there are very very few original Wacos still flying. Some might take exception to that, but the fact is most (or the ones that I have been involved with), are much like George Washingtons Axe... the handle was replaced in 1930, and the head is new! The UPF's not so much so, but certainly the 10 series. I should have clarified in the previous post, but my preferance would be to keep the airplanes in normal category. I might have to modify the airplanes to the extent that the FAA will place them into experimental category while I fly off the requirements for several one time STC's, but I will try everything I can to keep them "Normal", but it still might be beyond the scope of what the FAA will buy off now without DER approval. I know of 1 DER/DAR who charges on the average 5K per mod., and he is a bargain... I want an engine change, prop, brakes, rudder pedals etc. For example, the 10 series has a rudder bar... thats neato, but not really easy to adapt brakes to. My GXE came with an OX-5...I don't think anyone serious about building a flying airplane would consider putting an OX-5 in. They're neat to look at and were probably a lot more reliable back in the day than now, but they are totally impractical. Which would you rather have, an original OX-5 GXE that is flyable but not practical and original, an original GXE that is a good flier but modified with a W-670 continental in experimental category, or a replica. also in experimental category? All the modifications I want to do have been previously done, and 10 years ago would have been "no brainer" field approval, now the FSDO refers ALL field approvals to the DERS. DER costs could easily push the rebuild price way way beyond the difference between rebuilding normal category and original -- now licensed experimental. There are several examples of this... Bill Shaws BSO with a Lyc. R-680, Mike Strongs Taperwing with a 440 HP Wright, both in experimental category because of the engines, both still pretty expensive to buy. Any of the Wright motors are just too expensive and rare anymore to consider...I always thought a R-985 Pratt instead of the Wright would be a great swap but it's never been done before. I have some work to do before thinking about the engines.
Thought and Ideas welcomed, thanks so much for the input, this forum is great,
Jim

Edited by: luckydad

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Old 08-20-2008, 09:20 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckydad
I always thought a R-985 Pratt instead of the Wright would be a great swap but it's never been done before. I have some work to do before thinking about the engines.
Thought and Ideas welcomed, thanks so much for the input, this forum is great,
Jim

Jim, Ted Andersen built a Taperwing with an R-985 in the early 90's. See Sport Aviation May of 1992. You can veiw back issues of Sport Aviation on
EAA's website.Edited by: Cubflyer


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