Dennis' SD2 Project Dumb Questions

Discussion in 'Starduster' started by DennisV, Jan 28, 2018.

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  1. Jan 28, 2018 #1

    DennisV

    DennisV

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    I though I might as well start a thread for dumb questions as I get started on my SD2 "Resurrection" project. As I start piecing it together, some stuff is pretty obvious and some of it is quite perplexing. There is probably a simple answer in most cases.

    DQ01 (first Dumb Question): I temporarily mounted the gear legs and determined that the axle centerline sits ~7.6" aft of the firewall. Know it's not the currently recommended 8" but hoping it is close enough. It looks like they may have started with a different geometry and then re-done the gear to achieve what was then the latest thinking. However, I have to wonder if they finished the job. There doesn't seem to be any place on the gear leg assembly to attach the bungee cords. Would anybody possibly have a picture of what the upper portion of the gear looks like where the bungees attach? Thanks.

    DQ02: I suspect that my engine mount is "old thinking." It is 18" from the firewall to the mount sockets (where the rubber donuts sit on the mount). Understand the latest recommendation with an O360 is more like 26", right? So, is there anybody who makes engine mount for this thing?

    DQ03: There are six bolts sticking up out of the top of the center section of the wing. I've attached a picture. They're big bolts. I've never noticed such a thing on any others. I just can't imagine what is supposed to attach to the TOP of the wing using these big old bolts unless maybe somebody had in mind to attach a wing-walker harness or something up there. Anybody got any better ideas??

    Thanks.

    DSCN2386-800.jpg
     
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  2. Jan 28, 2018 #2

    NDTOO

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    DQ01- 7.625" is where mine is at. Works just fine.

    Afraid I can't help with the other DQ's. Those bolts are interesting for sure.
     
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  3. Jan 28, 2018 #3

    TFF1

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    I wonder if there was a plan to hang the plane from a ceiling? Storage? Lewis machine gun? Landing gear? The smartalec answer, to number 2 is, you. There are People out there that can build you a mount. The best solution, if you dont want to weld it, is to cut and tack everything together and have someone weld for you.
     
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  4. Jan 28, 2018 #4

    Dave Baxter

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    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
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  5. Jan 28, 2018 #5

    DennisV

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    Thanks to all for your replies, and especially to Dave for the extensive comments and pictures.

    As for the gear, OK, I see how the bungees go on. Everything is there. I am inspecting all the welds in the whole project, but the landing gear will deserve special scrutiny because of the appearance that they were changed/re-done at some point, probably to achieve the new farther-aft positioning. So far though, I'm reasonably impressed with the workmanship on this airplane, but this is the time to find/correct anything that isn't right, of course.

    Can anybody tell me the recommended toe-in/toe-out for the Starduster? I know this I always a hotly debated question, and that some aircraft types seem to do better with a little "in" and some with a little "out." Want to check that before I take the gear back off. Thanks.

    As for the engine mount, after I posted that question, I realized that I would have to do it myself to ensure that the bolts all line up on MY fuselage.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
  6. Jan 28, 2018 #6

    NDTOO

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    With the built up bungee gear toe in, toe out on most I'm guessing is 0-0. Per Dave's suggestion when I built my gear the fuselage was level with the gear tacked together and in place. A long piece of tube/pipe is inserted through the axles for alignment and fitting to the bottom of the gear before they are actually tacked in place. I set up my gear this way and tacked and finish welded as much as I could with the gear on the fuselage and then removed the gear and welded the areas that were tough to get at while in place.

    IMG_4003 (640x480).jpg

    IMG_7060 (800x600).jpg

    IMG_4002 (640x480).jpg
     
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  7. Jan 28, 2018 #7

    IanJ

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    Collected wisdom that I've seen is that you want zero toe-in or toe-out. Dead straight, or you risk very exciting landings.
     
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  8. Jan 28, 2018 #8

    DennisV

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    Thanks on the toe-in/toe-out question. It really varies from type to type. I know the Cessna guys (e.g., C170) swear they need toe-in. The Sportsman requires a little toe-out and tracks true as an arrow that way. However, checked this SD and it is indeed dead zero, so looks like one more thing I don't have to rebuild. Excellent!
     
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  9. Jan 28, 2018 #9

    DennisV

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    Regarding the bolts on the top of the wing, I'll get more pictures when I get a chance (and space cleared up) to get it off the rack and lay it down where I can get some better pictures. In the meantime, those are like AN6 bolts (3/8-24). Do not believe they were installed to hold the tank. Also slight overkill as a Go-Pro mount. ;) The tank is made such that it is not strapped down in the cavity in the center section in the normal fashion, but rather has an .060" "flange" that forms the top of the tank and lays on top of the center section. Again, more pics in the next few days.

    Couple other guys (who have each probably built or restored more biplanes and antiques than most of us will ever fly) have looked at it and both think the wing-walker theory is plausible. The extra heavy duty top on the tank to support the person, an the bolts for the straps, though I can't image doing much wing-walking with a 180HP Starduster.

    Regardless of why they are there, I'm inclined to remove the bolts and either cut the flange off the tank or get a new tank and strap the tank in the normal way, OR, just go without the tank and cover the hole.
     
  10. Jan 28, 2018 #10

    Lotahp1

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    From the sounds of the flange on the tank I think you would be fine to keep it as is. The top tank is suppose to be empty for aerobatics anyway. If the flanges are attached to the spars via a Aluminum L angle that’s bolted to the spar I’d think you are perfectly fine. Lots of ways to skin a cat. Maybe not how I’d do it, or you’d do it from scratch but maybe perfectly acceptable as is. More pics will help.

    As for Dave’s comment “...wait till we get to know you”. Before we think you’re asking dumb questions. I think that is THE funniest comment I’ve ever seen on here. I love it. (I’m just curious if the Jury is in on me yet? LoL)
     
  11. Jan 28, 2018 #11

    navybipe

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    DennisV, you need to pay a visit to NDTOO and look at his airplane. one peek is worth 10 pages of plans. be sure to take him good liquor, though, if you want to be welcomed.
     
  12. Jan 29, 2018 #12

    Knight Twister

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    I've never set any conventional gear airplane with toe in. My C180 had some toe in and was very squirrely till it was corrected with shims. Zero or the slightest amount of toe out is how I set them up. Usually zero if I'm building from scratch.
     
  13. Jan 29, 2018 #13

    DennisV

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    I would LOVE to find ANY SD2 to look at anywhere near me. Still trying to track any down. Where is NDTOO hanging out and what kind of liquor does it take? :)

    Never mind. Just found it in ND. But I'll still have to know what sort of spirits are favored. There are so many good ones you know. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  14. Jan 29, 2018 #14

    DennisV

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    Nor have I, Kevin, but I was doing some reading on line the other day and ran across a forum for Cessna guys and the C170 crowd on there were emphatic, adamant, and unequivocal that their airplanes MUST have toe-IN. Can't offer any personal experience to support or refute their position on the subject. Just reporting what I read.

    However, seems the consensus is that the SD needs zero and that's where mine is set, so I'm planning to leave it right there. ;)
     
  15. Jan 29, 2018 #15

    NDTOO

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    Ha, navybipe doesn't know what he is talking about. I really prefer good beer! I do agree with what he says about looking being worth 10 pages of plans though. I'm west of Devils Lake about 40 miles. About a two-ish hour drive from either Jamestown or Bismarck on your trek across I-94. No worries about bringing any spirits, you are welcome any time.
     
  16. Jan 29, 2018 #16

    Neil

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    Just as a point of interest, the Cessna 170B owners manual tells you to load the airplane to a specific weight and shim the axles to zero/zero.
     
  17. Jan 29, 2018 #17

    DennisV

    DennisV

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    Clearly none of those guys on that forum ever read that manual. :D
     
  18. Jan 29, 2018 #18

    DennisV

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    So, NDTOO, is that the current state of the airplane, or are those old pics? Planning several trips out to MT this year, so will just have to take the "Great Northern Route" on one of them. I'll just load up a new data card and charge the batteries in the camera and take a million pics. Will keep you posted. Thx.
     
  19. Jan 29, 2018 #19

    mreinh3233

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    same for mine. Lands nice and straight. A little heavy on the tail wheel is all.
     
  20. Jan 29, 2018 #20

    NDTOO

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    Those are pics from the build. It has been flying for three years now. This is it now. Maybe motivation for your build :)

    IMG_0523.jpg

    IMG_0521.jpg

    IMG_0525.jpg
     

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