Finally went for it!

Discussion in 'Pitts Model 12' started by brenthampton79, Aug 27, 2010.

Help Support Biplane Forum by donating using the link above.
  1. Aug 27, 2010 #1

    brenthampton79

    brenthampton79

    brenthampton79

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well my wife and I bought a set of model 12 plans at oshkosh and hoping to start on the wings this winter. What are the things that I should watch out for building this plane? Also what engine would everyone go with? the 360 hp or the 400hp m-14 I don't want to short change myself and want a good powerful enginealso consideringreliablity at the same time. This will be our first project also. thanks
     
  2. Aug 27, 2010 #2

    Chopmo

    Chopmo

    Chopmo

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2010
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    70
    Do what Kevin says. You cannot go wrong there. Buy the best engine you can afford. Get thewing kits if you can. The quality is outstanding and you really won't save much building from scratch because of all thewaste. Can't say much about the 400 hp version but I remember being at Bartlesville when Steve Wolf flew the first M12 (Kimball version) in on his way back to Washington I think. He stole the show. Nobody had ever seen a biplane blast off so fast get so high and land all in 60 seconds. The airplane was awesome with the standard M14p 360 hp.
     
  3. Aug 27, 2010 #3

    Benismo

    Benismo

    Benismo

    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    1
    Good choice and congratulations. The Model 12 is an outstanding aeroplane, and a real pleasure to fly. Between Darin Bishop's website http://www.2wings.com and the support on hand from the Kimballs you will always have an answer not too far away in those tricky, head scratching points in time. First up, go to the Google groups.. http://groups.google.com/group/Pitts12 and read every question and answer ever posted, some good stuff there.
    Dont be tempted to build the plans fuselage, the HP fuse from Kimballs matches every other thing from Kimballs and would have made our build much easier. Besides that, and I hate to admit it, but the HP airplane just looks better. We took on our 12 as a 1/2 done project and If I knew then what I know now I would have sold the plans built fuselage and bought the HP fuse. The parts provided by Kimballs are top quality, you will enjoy putting all the bits together.
    The engine.. The standard M14p is a great engine. Add the parts from Kimballs to "westernise" it, replace the related gaskets at the same time and you should have a fairly clean, well mannered engine. If you want more power than 360 HP have a look at what http://www.bpaengines.com/site.html can do for you. I would prefer the 410 HP on offer from a BPA modified engine, as opposed to the 400 HP available from the PF with the super charger spun up to get the horses out.. but really, the standard M14p is a LOT of grunt.

    Good luck with the build.


     
  4. Aug 27, 2010 #4

    FastEddie

    FastEddie

    FastEddie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Messages:
    194
    Likes Received:
    36
    Congrats and welcome to the community!


    I second the idea of buying the wing kit from Kevin. If you want the rounded wing-tips like the plans-built wings, Kevin can modify a wing kit to suit you for a little extra cost. Plus, the performance of the HP kit wings (extra 60 degrees/sec roll rate, cleaner center section, etc.) are definitely worth it. I priced out the materials to build wings from scratch and concluded that Kevin's wing kit priceis competitivewith scratch building with materials fromAircraft Spruce. Plus, you don't have to route out all those nose pieces.


    I don't have any personal experience with the M-14PF, but based on my reading, the PF trades higher horsepower for reduced life and reliability, especially in the supercharger. When I spoke to Bryan Jensen (he flies "The Beast") at OSH, he said that he has about 150 hrs. (includinglots ofhard-acro) on the Barrett-prepped 410HP M-14P and has had no reliability issues yet. By the time you are ready for an engine, there should be a good collection of field data about the reliability of the Barrett M-14P. We already know that you get 410HP and lower fuel consumption at cruise, plus the Barrett reputation for quality and reliability is excellent. That being said, I've never talked to a Pitts 12 pilot that thought the plane was underpowered with 360HP and the MT prop.


    I also second checking out 2wings.com. Its a great resource. Tons of pictures and an archive of e-mail questions and responses from Kevin and others about building the plane.


    I'm planning on a 360HP M-14 for my plane. If I can afford the Barrett when its time to buy, I will indeed give it a serious look, especially for the lower fuel consumption at cruise.


    The most important thing to watch for when building any plane is to chop the project up into many small steps. If you fixate on all the work that needs to be done to get it to completion, you'll drive yourself nuts. By looking at the project as lots of little projects, you get that 'rush' every time you finish a rib, fit a piece of sheet-metal, or get a part bolted on.


    I'm starting on my wings this winter too (gotta pay the tax-man first :( ). My fuse should be on the gear by then. Perhaps I'll see you posting on the Google groups then.


    Take Care,


    Ed



     
  5. Aug 29, 2010 #5

    brenthampton79

    brenthampton79

    brenthampton79

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0


    Thanks guys for the info I was curios what others thought about the engine choices. I beleive you have sold me on the Barrett engine unless something different has changed by the time i get to the engine part of the build. Might as well do it right I guess because I don't want to get the plane done down the road and say well I should've done this or that, which for me always cost me in the long run because I would end up changing it out anyway.


    Also thanks for the advice on the use of the kimball kit as I had already planned to take that route anway, but its always nice for some reassurance that you are making the right decisions especially on something as important as an airplane.


    I have checked out those websites and those will be a lot of help.


    Ed thanks for the advice as to looking at building parts instead of a whole plane at once. I was prepared to look at it that way since I have learned that building models since I was a kid that you can't build a plane you have to build parts of a plane, and when you look at it that way its a lot more fun especially the night when all those parts get put together and then you start to see her take shape. I am really excited about the build and my wife is also she can't wait to get the parts in a month or two and get started. I fly a spray plane so the only time I will have to work on it will be during the winter pretty much since the rest of the year is pretty much used up for working. I hope to have it completed 10 years from now is my goal that will put me at 41 years old. Again thanks for all the advice and keep it coming.
     
  6. Aug 30, 2010 #6

    FastEddie

    FastEddie

    FastEddie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Messages:
    194
    Likes Received:
    36
    I'm just starting year 2 on my 10 year build plan. If I win the lottery, I'll adjust it to a 5 year plan :)
     
  7. Aug 31, 2010 #7

    jlbpropilot

    jlbpropilot

    jlbpropilot

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2007
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    21
    Here is a shot of my engine that's about to get mounted to my Model 12. Thought I might fuel the project for you a little bit. Barrett's are only a phone call away, just as well plan ahead:)
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Aug 31, 2010 #8

    Chopmo

    Chopmo

    Chopmo

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2010
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    70
    Man, that is beautiful. Far prettier than Russian olive drab!
     
  9. Sep 1, 2010 #9

    N95334

    N95334

    N95334

    Registered Users

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2007
    Messages:
    274
    Likes Received:
    18


    It's so pretty you want to hang it on a Christmas tree first. Jimmy Stewart in "The Spirit of <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">St Louis</st1:place></st1:City>".<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" />
     
  10. Sep 1, 2010 #10

    darylat8750

    darylat8750

    darylat8750

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2008
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    91
    That is beautiful. I wonder if BPE has figured out a way to keep the oil on the inside. I think you could still eat off their Lyc. engines after they have a thousand hours on them.
     
  11. Sep 4, 2010 #11

    brenthampton79

    brenthampton79

    brenthampton79

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0


    Yeah that looks awsome, I also hope to hit the lottery so i can just spend time working on the model 12 and flying our s1 but back to reality and shopping for another spray plane :) to add to our business next year.
     
  12. Sep 4, 2010 #12

    Xavier

    Xavier

    Xavier

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    382
    Likes Received:
    3


    That means you'll soongot a hangar filled only with Pitts and cropdusters ?... personnaly that's what I call heaven !
     
  13. Sep 5, 2010 #13

    brenthampton79

    brenthampton79

    brenthampton79

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    xavier its not bad but the cropdusters definately take a lot of pitts flying out, our seasons are so long now that going to competing in competitions is almost impossible, this season i flew 5 weeks straight 15 hours a day in the 802 so it kind of turns into work then but in all I still wouldn't have it any other way just would like to have more time to fly the pitts in competition of course our season is usually the busiest during the time the competitions that are close enough for me to do, but oh well still can't complain much atleast I have all winters to work on the model 12 :)
     
  14. Sep 5, 2010 #14

    wally

    wally

    wally

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    29
    Hi Brent!


    Wally here from IAC27.


    Good tohear you are getting a "little" seat time in the 802. Thatmust have beena huge investment and glad it is busy making some money for you.


    So you are going to build a model 12, wonderfull! An awesome airplane. I saw Dave Richardson's a few years ago right after he got it finished. He islocal and I think another model 12 is finished or close to finishedhere. If you would like to talk to these guys, I can try to get you connected.


    Don't forget the Pitts fly-inin Ozark, Alabama Oct 9. A great chance to meet other Pitts drivers. The guy in charge is Marshall Collins and it should be a great time again.


    Take care,
    Wally
     
  15. Sep 5, 2010 #15

    brenthampton79

    brenthampton79

    brenthampton79

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Wally!!! How are you?I need to get you my dues for this year and next. I am very excited about the model 12 and I'll have to get in touch with those guys after i get started. My wife is also excited and ready for us to start the model 12! And yeah seat time is the word of the season haha we have about 600 hours on the 802 right now and we are going to add a 502 to the business so hopefully we will operate like humans instead of robots during our busy times ;) and just maybe I'll get to do some competitions next year, i practiced the sportman all year and still didn't get to do a competition, o well atleast i am fortunate enough to have a pitts and get to fly it so not all that bad, but still really want to do atleast 3 competitions a year. Hope all is well and keep in touch, p.s. where can i send my dues if you can pm me or email me thanks Brent
     
  16. Sep 5, 2010 #16

    Benismo

    Benismo

    Benismo

    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    1
    Must be something about Ag Pilots and good taste in airplanes, another Air Tractor and model 12 pilot here ;)
     
  17. Sep 6, 2010 #17

    brenthampton79

    brenthampton79

    brenthampton79

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    HaHa Benismo thats cool what air tractor are you flying, Like my wife says its not a real plane unless it has two wings and a radial unless of course its a p-51 mustang. (where did she come from?)
     
  18. Sep 7, 2010 #18

    dutchroll

    dutchroll

    dutchroll

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2010
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    8



    Well, you motivated me to get off my arse and register too!

    I've been a long-time lurker on all the Model 12 websites and am looking at my options very closely (have a set of plans too). I've personally visited and spoken with Kevin Kimball and also Larry King, who are both a gold mine of info as you expect. I've also flown the plane - oh yeah! [​IMG]

    The advice I received on motors is basically that you can't go wrong with the standard 360HP M14P. The differences with the PF version are pretty minor when it comes to actual Model 12 performance, except perhaps for your takeoff run, which is ludicrously short with the standard motor anyway. So it comes down to which engine you happen to end up with after getting the best deal you can on hours/condition/price.

    The Barrett engine has impressed people. Yes it has more HP, but the really worthy improvements are in other areas like oil consumption (they're really clean apparently, which answers another question above), fuel consumption (with the fuel injection), etc.

    Mike

    Edited by: dutchroll
     
  19. Sep 7, 2010 #19

    Benismo

    Benismo

    Benismo

    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hey Brent, I am currently in a 402, usually spraying Bananas but am helping out with a massive wheat seaon lately. Your wife isn't too far off the mark, but I would rather spend 8 or 9 hours a day in the AT than in a Mustang. Although a few hours in a P-51 wouldn't be unwelcome :)

     
  20. Sep 8, 2010 #20

    brenthampton79

    brenthampton79

    brenthampton79

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mike glad i could be of some help yeah i talked to Larry and Kevin at oshkosh this year and last year and I am very happy that I decided to go with the model 12 I looked at building an acro sport II since my brother and I had one and it would be cheaper but it still isn't what I want the most, so I just broke down and decided to go for broke (litteraly) but I know it will be well worth it in the end and I know there won't be any regrets when we finish her up and start flying, and thats the reason I think im going to to go with the barrett engine because I don't want to say well I wonder or I wish I just want to do it the absolutevery best I can and put the best stuff on her and fly it. Mike I would be afraid to fly a model 12 right now or I might sell everything I have to have kimball build one for me then ;) just kidding.


    Benismo, huge wheat season huh? That looks like the same thats going to happen to us this year too, our customers are already buying winter wheat seed like crazy. Which is good we are trying to snatch up a 502 to run with the 802 and i think it will be a good move just for the wheat this year not to mention our rice season has grown past one 802. Have you flown a mustang? if you have you're a lucky guy. And sitting in the AT isn't that bad but when you have to look at that red pitts every load it sure makes it hard somedays or atleast it does for me
     

Share This Page