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FS: Pitts S-2 Project

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thebignickey

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Looks like I am making the jump over to the dark side and thus my Pitts is up for sale. I am looking to get 30,000 I have over twice that wrapped up in this not including my time.

Started Life as a late model S-2A and thus all the factory improvements are incorporated. ( Taller Gear and Wider Fuselage). Other mods include but are not limited to:

Front and Rear seatbelt relocation kits
Rear Spar Doubler
Metal added to fuselage to include sides back to the turtleneck and the belly from nose to tail
New stainless steel firewall
overhauled wheels and breaks
overhauled master cylinders
sandblast, epoxy prime, and paint all steal parts
new engine mounts
aviation products rod spring and tail wheel
S-2C style vent system
S-2C Panel
S-2C Wings (lower wings damaged but have cad file to produce required parts) (please see photo of wing drawn in cad in attached link)
New thicker wall control sticks
Carbon fiber seat pan for front seat
lots of new hardware
and many more things I am sure I am missing.




This is a complete project less the following items:

Prop
mags (mag harnesses and spark plugs as well)
exhaust
cowling

The aircraft has just under 1400TT on it along with the engine (AEIO-360-A1E) photos of the cam are included in the link. There has never been any damage to this aircraft and complete logs are available. please have a look at the link for any photos. If you have any questions or would like photos of any thing specific please let me know.

Thanks
Nick Gill

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jf98459mwym3ibh/AAD7J2Nolco-tJSXpnsL-Vj9a?dl=0
 

thebignickey

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Same reason as most of them. To restore and modify to my liking. It was 100% original to rolling off the assembly floor in 1981.
 

Johnny White

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I have a complete S2A cowl withMarion Cole paint scheme and a set of wings with symetrical ailerons in Marion Cole paint also.
 

thebignickey

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Johnny you have the original wings and cowl off of this project invade anyone is interested
 

Gonzo

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I see you metalized the cockpit area, has that all been approved as a major alteration? Also is the engine at 1400TT, if so it is at TBO for that engine?
 

cwilliamrose

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Really nice project Nick, if I didn't already have a project I'd be looking at this very seriously............
 

thebignickey

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No paperwork has been submitted to the FAA as of yet and yes the engine is higher time as stated not sure what your question is here?

Thanks for the complement it has been my baby so to speak all the work done to this point is top notch. Somebody is going to get a very nice jump start on a very nice airplane. If I can find a way to keep both planes I will but for now this has to make room for the new toy.
 

jerr888

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The paperwork for metalizing the sides would be daunting enough, let alone
installing S2C wings? Cowl?
I don't think it can be an S2E now, so how can it ever be registered?
Good fortune that the wings and cowl are still available?
 

thebignickey

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I won't go into how I planned to get things approved on here. I will be happy to share with the new owner of the project if they wish. Or build this as an experimental home built and call it what ever you like. It is not that difficult.
 

thebignickey

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Back on the market. Previous buyer claimed to be sending a deposit check then called Almost a week later to say he no longer wanted the project and never sent the deposit check and "take care" some people I tell you.

I have had close to 100 calls and emails on this but no cash as of yet who will be the lucky person to take this home?
 

EAABipe40FF

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"Or build this as an experimental home built and call it what ever you like. It is not that difficult. "


You must know something I don't? As far as I know it's "legally" impossible.
 

thebignickey

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There are other. S-2's out there that started life and are now both experimental Amature Built and exibition. If you can show me anything in black an white from the FAA that says something with as much work has been done and will be done to put this aircraft back in the sky does not qualify it for both of the above I will be happy to change my statement.

However, I would ask you please not post personal opinion or assumption. It is miss leading and potentially harmful to my ad.

Thanks!
 

EAABipe40FF

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It's in black and white from FAA for sure. E-Exibition is possible but not E-AB. Although conversion from certified to E-AB has been done in the past it has never been exactly legal and the FAA has firmed-up the rules to comply with the regulations. Suggestion that E-AB is possible would be very harmful to a buyer.

I would suggest that the buyer of ANY project thinking of going E-AB get the complete info package from the FAA. Not only that but then discuss the specific project with the FAA office that will be doing the AWC inspection.

I got AWC in 2011 on my Spezio and on 12-04-15 on my AD2 from the same MIDO. The process was much harder/different. The suggested program letter was twice as long and required sign-off in specific detail on build log etc. and as I said it would be impossible to convert a certified aircraft to E-AB w/o "fabrication" of build log and records in order to comply with E-AB requirements.

from


AC No: [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]20-27G [/FONT][/FONT]​



e. Converting a Type-Certificated Aircraft to an Amateur-Built Aircraft.
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]The practice of performing alterations, repairs, and rebuilding of previously type-certificated aircraft for the purpose of obtaining an experimental amateur-built airworthiness certificate is not authorized under § 21.191(g). Such maintenance actions properly fall under 14 CFR part 43, Maintenance, Preventive Maintenance, Rebuilding, and Alteration. You will not receive credit for these actions toward fabrication or assembly. We will not accept applications for airworthiness inspections on such aircraft. [/FONT][/FONT]​

(1)


[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]This policy has been in effect since 1952 under section 1.74-3 of the Civil Aeronautical Manual 1 (CAM 1), which specifically states that "structural components of other aircraft may be used [for amateur-built aircraft]; however, it is not intended that this provision be used to avoid obtaining approval of major alterations to aircraft previously certificated in another category…." [/FONT][/FONT]​

(2)


[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]You should use the normal supplemental type certificate process for modifications to these aircraft and they should be kept under their existing maintenance programs to ensure continued airworthiness. [/FONT][/FONT]​

In addition, from 8130.2H p. 4-59


b. Use of Salvaged Articles from Type-Certificated Aircraft. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]The use of used or salvaged articles (for example, landing gear, horizontal stabilizer, and engine mount) from type-certificated aircraft is permitted, as long as they are in a condition for safe operation, however― [/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](1) When a project involves a major article, such as wings, fuselage, or tail assembly, contact AIR-100 for a determination of eligibility to § 21.191(g). AIR-100 will coordinate with Flight Standards Service, Aircraft Maintenance Division (AFS-300) personnel to resolve such issues. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](2) No credit will be given to the amateur builder(s) for any work on these salvaged articles when determining whether the amateur-built aircraft has met the major portion requirement. This would include any "rebuilding" or "restoring" activities to return these articles to an airworthy condition [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](3) All fabrication, installation, and assembly tasks accomplished with used or salvaged articles will be credited to the "Mfr Kit/Part/Component" column on the Amateur-Built Aircraft Fabrication and Assembly Checklist. However, assembly credit may be given in those cases where used or salvaged articles are mated to portions of the aircraft fabricated and assembled by the amateur builder. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](4) Amateur builders should be made aware that excessive use of prefabricated or salvaged articles when building their aircraft may render the aircraft ineligible for amateur-built status as defined in § 21.191(g). The use of a significantly complete airframe or combination of major articles such as wings and fuselage, tail plane assembly from a type-certificated aircraft, or a compilation of aircraft, would most likely render the aircraft ineligible for amateur-built status as defined in § 21.191(g). [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]



The above rules/AC are in addition to the guidance I received from my MIDO which detailed their view of the applicable FAR's/rules and AC's​

Jack​
[/FONT]
 
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race38

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I'm curious as to how then is it possible to build a Swick T or Exp Clipt Cub? Are there differences? Sure but the majority of my Swick is stock TCart parts. Assembled differently, heavier spars, additional structure and more wires. ?????
 

PittsDriver68

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Faa policy "evolves". You can not do today what was OK yesterday.

Aerotek, now Aviat, once upon a time would sell you an S-2A as a kit, with a contract that granted you the permission to build an S-2E. That was before the current 51% rule described in modern AC's.

Breezys are also problematical today. Used to be able to weld up a fuselage and bolt on Piper parts. When was the last Breezy built? I have heard anecdotally that to build a Breezy today you have to construct the wings from scratch.

Are new Swick T's and Clip Wing Cubs Amateur Built Experimentals? I thought that there were STC's for Clip Wing Cubs and at least one variation of the Clipped T-Carts. Since I am not plugged into that segment of our world, perhaps someone here can speak authoritatively?

Near as I can tell, its about bureaucracy following the letter of the rule in an increasingly conservative, no-risk, manner.

Caveat Emptor.

Wes
 

thebignickey

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This project is more than just seeking to have the certificate changed from certified to experimental with a little fixing up done. It has been a giant under taking and been taken down to every part, sandblasted and gone back together. Wings off a different plane that the lower wings are being used as temples and new wings built from scratch re using only the steal parts. Long sorry short the same amount of work that goes into building an eagle less construction of the top wing will have been done by the time this is flying again.

Given parts from different airplanes I see nothing that says it is not possible to do as I stated.

That said I can see how some might interpret it the other way, but ultimately I don't see an issues putting this in the AB category.
 

thebignickey

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With all that said I would like that this conversation please be opened in the normal forum under its own topic if wished to be continued this thread closed so that I may re-list this project with conversation back on topic for truly interested parties.
 

Morphewb

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The original Swick T mod was an STC. Initially had an 0-200 on it. The Reed Clipped Wing Cub is the only version I know that is considered ''legal'' but they're could be more ''one time'' situations out there. None of us are surprised that each and every FSDO, MIDO,DILDO, or any other alphabet soup group has their own policies and procedures......which often change when there is also a change in upper management of said facilities.

Breezys can be built with unassembled wing kits with ribs built (or stamped). IF that someone builds the struts, stabs, elevator, and, last but not least, the fuselage (which contains more tubing that at least 4 Pitts Specials) that shoves it over the 51 percent rule from the DAL FSDO in 1995. That was good enough for an AWC back then.

BTW, I have a hangar partner that actually BUILT an RV 7 from plans....FROM PLANS!! Oh the HORROR! He didn't even buy the Tail Kit first!! I thought the DAR was going to call him a liar until the stack of paperwork and picture documentation came out of the back of this guy's truck. I don't think that personal DAR had ever seen a completely ''plans built'' RV anything.

Wes, I know the current crop of ARF airplane kits is all the rage but do you really think a Breezy is not a legal AB-E? People put a lot of stock in your posts, opinions, and facts. We can always depend on you to be the ''go to'' guy when something is ''iffy''. Find out if that ''anecdotal fact'' is something you really want to stand behind.
 
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PittsDriver68

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I did not say that a Breezy could not be built as an E-AB, I just pointed out that the manner in which you can build one today is different than how they were built 20 years ago. I know someone who built a Breezy under the "old" rules by welding the fuselage and bolting on Piper struts, wings and tail feathers. As the second paragraph of the post above points out, today you have a list of parts that must be built from scratch.

I can't tell that the "modern" interpretation of the rules improves safety or provides more educational value to the builder.

As an example of how FAA policy has evolved, I am a few days away from receiving a one-airplane STC for an alteration that used to be done through the Field Approval process. Not breaking any new ground with this project, but the FAA changed the rules. More and different paperwork for the same result.

Remember the moto - "We're not happy until you're not happy"....

I have actually had an FAA inspector speak those words. And it is unclear if humor was intended.

Best of luck,

Wes
 
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