Full flying tail

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  1. Feb 25, 2018 #1

    Dennis5678

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    Just wondering why someone has not used a full flying tail. Instead of using
    a horizontal stab and elev use a full flying horizontal tail.
    Could do some wild tumble aerobatics
     
  2. Feb 25, 2018 #2

    biplanebob

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    Have you ever looked at the full flying tail on a Piper Cherokee.... two 1/4'' bolts are the attachment / hinges.

    I like my 4 wires and 2 struts.

    Bob :)
     
  3. Feb 25, 2018 #3

    jrs14855

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    The Laudenslager/Zivco Shark has a full flying tail that has the capability of near 90 degree travel for tumbles. It never flew and never will. It was in the main EAA Museum but I haven't been there for a couple of years.
    It scared me just at that airplane. I believe it is the lightest 540 powered unlimited aerobatic monoplane ever built. Fuselage primary structure is bonded carbon fiber tubes.
     
  4. Feb 25, 2018 #4

    Morphewb

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    The Swiss Akrostar designed by Arnold Wagner had an all flying tail coupled to the flaps like a control line model. Less than a dozen were made. Didn't go very far. Supposedly was fiberglas but mostly wood with fiberglassed parts. One crashed at KGYI in a not akro related incident and the remains were by the side of Don Ort's hangar for a while. Nothing but splinters of wood and fiberglass parts, looked like a boat blew up.
     
  5. Feb 25, 2018 #5

    PittsDriver68

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    An all flying tail adds more engineering. Balance for flutter is important. You have to pick an airfoil that will work at all airspeeds and G that you want. The Cessna Cardinal has an all flying stabilator and originally could have the stabilator stall, resulting in uncommanded nose down pitch. Not good.

    The only builder who I know rebuilt the horizontal stab and elevator of their biplane to be a real, and efficient, airfoil is Robert Armstrong. All of the other biplanes that you see pretty much have flat, steel tube shaped, horizontal stabs. Its a formula that works and is easy to build. Robert was motivated to fly Unlimited at the world level in the two aileron S-1 he could afford at the time. Most of us are not quite that driven.

    Best of luck,

    Wes
     
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  6. Feb 25, 2018 #6

    EAABipe40FF

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    Because we have no need to go supersonic.:rolleyes:
     
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  7. Feb 26, 2018 #7

    AaronS

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    The Beech Musketeer was certified for limited acro, most inside maneuvers except whip stalls. To get the "acro" version involved having a kit installed at the factory, which consisted of mostly a few strakes (so it would spin) and shoulder harasses.

    There is an AD note that requires repetitive inspections of the stabilator attach fittings and bulkhead every 25 hours. The "straight" airframes have to do this every 100.

    The all flying tail gives a huge CG range, it's primary purpose in bug smasher spam cans. It is also my understanding that a stabilator also allows the wing to be located a bit farther aft, giving the passengers a flat floor without any carry-through structure in the way (it usually is below the rear seat cushion).
     
  8. Feb 26, 2018 #8

    Knight Twister

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    I remember the Acrostar coming to the contest in KC. If I remember right it was crashed in an attempt at some type of maneuver during T/O. The pilot was Jim Jackson.(fatal) He had a Skybolt at the time and was buying or going to buy the Acrostar. When you moved the elevator the flaps moved in the opposite direction. I think it had a 220 Franklinstein.
    Edit: My curiosity sent me on a google search. I found some wikipedia info on the Acrostar. In looking at the pictures the wing reminds me of the Kraft "Super Fli" anybody remember that one? Wonder what happened to the prototype? Hows that for thread drift? Dam single wingers.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  9. Feb 26, 2018 #9

    bipedream

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    An all flying tail doesn't automatically give a larger CG range. It can be sized slightly smaller than a conventional horizonal tail for a given CG range. A trimable stab can counter that advantage on a conventional tail. The flutter issues Wes mentioned above make an all flying tail a little more picky on balance, rigging, and free play.

    The main advantage is in manufacturing. Fewer parts than a fixed tail generally, even with the tab. It is also then a bolt on subassembly. Most are constant chord to further simplify the build. The Comanche had a tapered stabilator so there are exceptions to that comment.

    It could certainly be done for aerobatics but shouldn't be done without some real design, analysis, and test. There were large scale RC models built to test some of the ideas used on the Shark and engineers involved, if my understanding is correct.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  10. Feb 26, 2018 #10

    race38

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    Growing up flying behind the Franklin, I thought the Acrostar was the bestest. Always been a sucker for different. YBNrml
     
  11. Feb 26, 2018 #11

    acro bobby

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    Super Fli was sold by Phill Kraft. Around 1981. It was built by my dads friends. Flew the airplane a few times as a young man. Last i knew it was at SANTA PALA airport. Steve Nelson use to do air shows with it....
     
  12. Feb 26, 2018 #12

    Knight Twister

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    Interesting to hear the Super Fli airframe is still around. The N number N5PK was on two different airplanes owned by Kraft and now shows on a Cassutt. Phil Kraft owned a Starduster II that found its way to Kansas and my dad's airport. It was a very nice example of a SD and eventually was owned and flown by John Morrisey in IAC competition. He did very well with that airplane.
     
  13. Feb 26, 2018 #13

    TFF1

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    Always a modeler, I am a fan of the Super Fli. I think the plane sports a different N5 number now and is on the East Coast. Thats from me trying to find it. I think it was rebuilt into "another airplane" and has a different "builder". I for sure could be wrong. I wish I could find more than the rudimentary drawings on it and make one.
     
  14. Feb 26, 2018 #14

    cwilliamrose

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    It always looked like a dog to me. It was too heavy for the mission and it shows in videos of it in flight. It had a less than exciting roll rate too. Nice looking airplane but it needed a weight loss program.
     
  15. Feb 26, 2018 #15

    lanceav8r

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    Question: are we talking about a stabilator or are we just talking about an airfoiled tail like the Steve Wolf Pitts?
     
  16. Feb 26, 2018 #16

    Dennis5678

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    I started out asking about using a stabilator, full flying horizontal tail feather. Like all post they seem to drif from the original subject. Which is ok, you learn a lot on drifts.
    Yes it would be heavier but would you gain better head over hills aerobatic.
     
  17. Feb 26, 2018 #17

    jrs14855

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    Back to the original subject, John Thorp was alleged to be the originator of the stabilator. Two and maybe three T18's crashed fatally as a result of flutter in the stabilator that caused the airplanes to break up in flight. It took a series of design changes and mods to get it right.
    Piper had problems with the stabilator on the single and Twin Commanches. They lost at least one airplane in testing but it may not have been a Commanche.
     
  18. Feb 26, 2018 #18

    Chris McMillin

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    I cannot see where the stabilator would be beneficial to homebuilt biplanes. Their speed envelope is not large and the engineering to make the system right takes a lot of time and effort to do properly for the first flight and then even more time, effort and maybe lives to tweak it.

    This reminds me of the Gary Levitz Unlimited air racer that was a Lear wing and Lear trimmable stab/elevator, P-51 rear fuse and vertical, with a steel tube motor mount and Griffon engine with rotor contraprop. All good parts, about 140 hours of flight time to very high mach and IAS by at least two professional (Lockheed and Air Force) test pilots and yet still a one off, low time airplane and the rudder or stab fluttered it to destruction at a fairly low airspeed for the airplane's potential and previous test regimes. Might have been a failure of the steel tube structure of the stab support, maybe an over stress from a hypothetical runaway stab trim motor, might have been a lot of things but it's gone and Gary is still dead.

    By comparison a well modified NAA P-51 has 15,000 of type constructed to pretty close tolerance, two wars and all of the postwar operation of fleet time, who knows how many hours, flight test hours, etc.

    To the point, no one can build a homebuilt to the level of reliability of a manufactured airplane. Why build a critical aerodynamic feature in something we're measuring with a yardstick and welding in the garage when there are so many safe fixed stab (or trimmable stab)/moveable elevator airplane designs that work so well with plenty of margin for error?

    You want to go faster, get some boards and rig the wings, raise the leading edge of the stab, buy that neat book about streamlining from EAA and have fun chasing the knots. Mile of tape, mile and hour! Oh, look on You Tube for the video of the Comanche flutter test and think of yourself as the designer, builder, test pilot and engineer. Yeah, maybe you but not me, man!

    Chris...
     
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  19. Feb 26, 2018 #19

    bipedream

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    High deflections and wanting the ultimate in control power in the pre- and post-stall part of the envelope could make it attractive.

    It is not something to be done casually and would take both a real engineering effort and test program to do it without excessive risk.
     
  20. Feb 27, 2018 #20

    Lotahp1

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    Knight...do you the N number for the Starduster Too Kraft had and then John Morrisey had ?

    Chris...that’s some interesting info on Miss Ashley. That was always one of my favorite planes. It had all the “right” parts. Griffin, cobra rotating props, lear wing etc etc. such a sad sad way for it to go. Still can’t believe we once had two griffin, contra rotating Prop mustang based Mustangs and now there are none. I sure wish and hope there is still people with money who can and will spend the cash. Jimmy Leeward and the Ghost seems like the last real racer build.
     
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