landing advice

Discussion in 'Steen Skybolt' started by skywolf210, Oct 24, 2016.

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  1. Jul 11, 2018 #61

    biplanebob

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    I use a similar technique as race38......my home field has a 150' wide runway, if I am on centerline , I am lost.
    If I land with the centerline flashing past my left wingtip, I am in a happy place. :)

    Bob
     
  2. Jul 11, 2018 #62

    CapnWolfe

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    I know we all talk about landing on the centerline, however, on really wide runways (150'), that's a lot of real estate for a little biplane. Landing just left or right of the centerline can help the perception quite a bit, particularly if you are used to more narrow runways until you adapt. Not sure why it helps, but it sure seems to help me. Once I got used to the wider runway, I got closer to the centerline .. but still like to see it:).
     
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  3. Jul 11, 2018 #63

    joser1965

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    in my humble opinion and with my limited experience i know a few basic things:

    High speed on final, float, High sink rate on final bounce. It has happened to me on every plane I have flown.

    Having said that I do a power off, abeam the number, close, like really close at 500 feet. Power to idle and turn, I am over the fence at 85 and that seems to work, no float no bounce. Any slower, high sink and BOUNCE any faster and float, throw power in and it all changes, carry a passenger and it changes. As far as the flare, it should be as low as possible. As someone said in a previous post, the second you pull the stick back, speeds gone, sink rate increases and BOUNCE. Unless you add power, true in any plane.

    So, from this I have learned always try and do the same thing, sit the same, same speed same approach path. I know things change, but if you strive to do the same on every approach and landing you will have consistent results.

    Thats just my opinion and these techniques, works for me.
     
  4. Jul 12, 2018 #64

    skywolf210

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    as far as carrying power on final, I do not do it. several years ago I was talking to another skydiver on the way up and he told me that he was landing a 182, turned final and was on the perfect glide path by the lights, pulled the power to idle and lost the engine, almost did not make the runway when the prop stopped. after thinking about that I changed to pulling the power at the end of the downwind as I make my turn. the skybolt does come down fast and I stopped aiming for the end of the runway, now I aim about 500 ft from the end. I can add power if I need to and I watch the wind for the best set up point. I also use the same style for the 172 and 150, works every time. I have a 5000 by 100 paved asphalt strip. a besides that, It is a lot of fun to come in with a little turn going on, I have also practice with a straight in approach, in case I ever need to do that. for what it is worth, I am having a lot more fun with the landings now that I can do them. highest crosswind so far is about 8kts. still a little careful about that, but I will get there
     
  5. Jul 13, 2018 #65

    mmelugin48

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    In 11,000 hours I have had two engine "failures" not caused by enemy fire .. both involved "power to idle". In the first I was giving someone a 135 checkride and gave a simulated engine failure in a Bell Jet Ranger chopping the throttle to idle. When I checked the gas producer she was headed to zero ... flame out. Fortunately I had given the guy a big plowed field as an "emergency landing area" so I got to perform a no slide autorotation to the ground myself.

    The second was another simulated engine failure, but in a 150 on downwind on a BFR. Again when the throttle was pulled to idle the engine quit. . I noted to the fellow we had "no engine" and he did an admirable job of landing the airplane .. but my hand was were never more than a microsecond from the controls. She started right up as we coasted to a stop.

    After my first hours in a 150 I've been flying "stabilized" approaches ... in Mooneys, Bonanzas, Barons, Citations. I'm of the Wolfgang Langewiesche school of thought, power for angle of descent(altitude), pitch for airspeed. I don't know for absolute that "shock cooling" is a thing .. but there are enough good pilots and mechanics that believe it .. that I rarely go from pattern power to idle without an intermediary pause. Abeam the numbers I'll go to descent power .. about halfway between pattern power and idle. This gives me room to maneuver .. we have a lot of banner tow-ers, visitors and "ride" airplanes here at the beach .. I don't think they intentionally cut in on the pattern .. but it happens. If I have to extend my downwind .. no big deal. If I need to shorten my pattern .. I can slip it. Where and when I come to idle on final depends on which landing I'm doing, 3 pt. or wheel. I normally carry a very little amount of power on wheelies to touchdown. Not really necessary but helpful I find if it's gusty (which is when I do wheel landings).
     
  6. Jul 13, 2018 #66

    grassroots

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    I often hear that some don't typically do power off approaches because of other traffic in the pattern. In my experience at a busy training airport with the Pitts, a power off hard slipped tight approach is what ALLOWS you to do your thing with other traffic in the pattern. At first they think you're cutting them off if you're behind them on downwind and turn early, but if you communicate what you're doing, that you have them in sight, that you'll be no factor, and that you will be well clear, they tend to be OK with it and get used to the different performance capability compared to all the trainers in the pattern. They also realize I've actually taxied halfway to the hangar before they're even coming over the fence. It's fun and good practice, and minimizes pattern exposure and the amount of airspace to see and avoid in.
     
  7. Jul 13, 2018 #67

    mmelugin48

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    I would not want to test whether this is a violation of CFR 91.113 myself ...
     
  8. Jul 13, 2018 #68

    Saber

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    Now that you are starting to experiment a bit start looking at landings as exercise in using the tools available. You have power, slips, wind, alt., density of the air etc. , wheel landing , three point, and tail low/ three point and then lift the tail when you touch and roll out . All have a purpose.
     
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  9. Jul 13, 2018 #69

    grassroots

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    Well, re-read the reg and what I wrote. I mentioned turning behind someone on downwind, not turning in front of someone already on final. I'm not gonna truck for 2 miles behind a 172 on extended downwind. I hardly think that's a 91.113 issue.
     
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  10. Jul 13, 2018 #70

    Saber

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    Holy macaroni, I just read the post about cutting in front of others in a pattern! POOR,POOR don't do this. I can't believe you do this and write about it also. I have close to 20,000 hours and that's right up in the top stupid thing I've heard, the other aren't really good with you most likely, they are just looking at you as a person to be avoided at all cost. At a training airport there are students working hard at leaning landings and when a person pulls a stunt like you discribe it mess's up there approach and concentration. That person is also paying a lot of money to fly and you stole about ten mins of training time from them.
     
  11. Jul 13, 2018 #71

    grassroots

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    Stole 10 min? o_O Not sure guys are reading correctly and I'm confused why you think turning behind someone you know is gonna be flying 1-2 miles past the threshold on downwind is "cutting in front" of when I'll be touching down in 20 seconds. I was typically clear of the runway before they even turned their 1-2 mile final. Those who knew me at the airport knew I was considerate, used good judgment, communicated well, and played well with others. Pretty strong hyperbole there. I did sell my Pitts, so I guess I'm no longer aviation threat numero uno in the world. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Jul 13, 2018 #72

    mmelugin48

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    Friend I have a lot of experience with the FAA as a 135 Chief Pilot and check airman and what you think that reg means don't mean anything compared to what they think it means. I can almost guarantee you there are guys who would violate you if they saw you do what you described.
     
  13. Jul 13, 2018 #73

    grassroots

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    Never heard of a precedent for that, and it doesn't sound like you do either, and are making assumptions. I have a good bit of experience with the Feds as well, and know what you are trying to say, though. If you want to discuss common sense and real safety, that's another matter. I'm much more concerned with that than the chance of some Fed grossly extrapolating the intent of some reg.
     
  14. Jul 13, 2018 #74

    cwilliamrose

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    I'm with Eric here. Turning behind someone in an airplane like an S-1 is no issue for the guy/gal flying a large pattern. They'll never catch up to you.....
     
  15. Jul 13, 2018 #75

    grassroots

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    Regarding disservice to students, IMO what I describe doesn't come close compared to how out of control pattern size instruction has become in many cases.
     
  16. Jul 13, 2018 #76

    grassroots

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    If a student with qualified instructor onboard on downwind is rattled by the situation I describe, I sure wonder how these poor students can possibly stay on task and have quality learning time when there is the stretched out stack of 2 more Cessnas in front of them - one on base and one one final. That ACTUALLY puts demands on a student to keep track of their position relative to these other two planes, and not crowd them as they fly their pattern. And then there's me, who told them clearly exactly what I was doing and that I was zero factor for them, which was always the case. They never even had to look for me. Maybe we should only allow one airplane at a time in the pattern. That would make life easier for those poor students who barely have time to think during those 10 minute bomber patterns. ;)
     
  17. Jul 13, 2018 #77

    mmelugin48

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    So your telling me Bill .. that if you knew there was a team of FAA guys down on the field you would be ok with cutting the pattern like that?

    I also get aggravated by some of the bomber patterns being flown. I have on occasion had a polite discussion with other CFIs I know. For the most part I just don't worry about it .. patience is a virtue in flying. Lots of safety stuff requires it. I have also heard rather blunt comments about Pitt's pilots being a bunch of hotshot cowboys who think they're special.. and have always taken exception to that kind of remark. I may be less ready to do that in the future ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  18. Jul 13, 2018 #78

    grassroots

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    Well if that's the case, I hope it's based on direct personal experience and not your assumptions about someone on an internet forum. Those who actually know me would not put me in the hotshot cowboy category...I don't think - lots of fellas here actually know me. Y'all correct me if I'm wrong! :D
     
  19. Jul 13, 2018 #79

    grassroots

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    I know for a fact the FAA conducts random, inconspicuous surveillance at my airport. Nope, I never had concerns about turning a short base to final abeam the numbers behind the Cessna extending their wide ass downwind for 2 miles. But it did put a damper on flying inverted 10' over the taxiway between the hangars. ;)
     
  20. Jul 13, 2018 #80

    mmelugin48

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    That will all be fine(?) until there's someone on short final you don't see that's maybe up the wrong frequency (happens here all the time) or doesn't talk much or whose battery on their Icom failed. There's a reason we have patterns at uncontrolled fields ... and there's a reason most of us put up with those patterns .. well flown or not. There's this saying that goes "everyone faster than me is a maniac and everyone slower's a moron" .. That student pilot just might be on his first solo .. and I want to give him every break I can ... even if it costs me a minute.
     

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