O-290-D L-1969-21 Ouestions?

Discussion in 'Lycoming & Continental' started by Dave Baxter, Dec 2, 2017.

  1. Dec 2, 2017 #1

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

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    Hey all you engine guys I have several questions? Please chime in. I bought this engine several yrs ago from a friend here locally he was rebuilding Champions Citabira's and this engine came off of a Bellanca Scout. It is a certified engine and with impeccable log books from day one. It has 2035.7 hrs TT, and about 209.1 SMOH, but it had set for some time, about 10 yrs, as it was flown to Oshkosh and back in 2007 and although it had dryer plugs was never pickled. It also had the #1 cylinder replaced due to low compression, and never run after, as it was removed from the scout for a bigger engine.

    I had hoped it would be good to go with out a lot of work? With the accessory housing and oil pan off what I could see looked good, but as most suggested I should remove at least one cylinder so I could look at the cam and lifters, and although at first glance it looked serviceable, some of the cam lobes and lifters seemed to be discolored and did not have the polished look that others did, so I pulled another cylinder, and low and behold one, only one lifter was badly spalled, and apparently had been that way for some time?!


    So splitting the case was the next order of business and a new or yellow tag cam along with lifters is now in order. The engine looks good really pretty clean inside, no case fretting and even the main bearings and crankshaft journals look good. Also there was no metal chips in the upper or lower screens, nor was their any evidence of metal inside the case or in the residual oil. But when turning the engine on the stand with all the plugs out before removing the cylinders it seemed to be stiff/tight, and not free like one would expect?
    So after the case was split the shaft still did not want to turn easy in one of the case half's?

    Once the crank was removed it became apparent that the oil slinger flange was, and or had been galling in the front of the case!

    I was able to clean off the galled aluminum from the back side and polish the the slinger area, (Pictures enclosed) But not sure I can do the same with the case? It would be a shame to send the case in and have it overhauled for just this, but I am not sure what else to do? I have not seen this before, on the engines I have worked on?

    So my question is what caused it? Was it some of the metal from the spalled lifter? Or what? inquiring minds what to know?

    Thanks to all you engine guys in advance if you care to comment, my engine guy is visiting his daughter in CA and wont be back for a week or so.

    Jim Stanton, whats your take on this based on your experience? Dave

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  2. Dec 2, 2017 #2

    RC51

    RC51

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    It seems odd that the bearings look so good and that is spalled with no signs of heat?It is also not the thrust side?Is there any way that through sitting it became so dry, that when the engine was on the stand and then rotated with the weight of the engine on it and the surface dry it grabbed some material and caused the spalling.It seems unlikely that the cam and follower material would only cause damage in that area,just a thought
     
  3. Dec 2, 2017 #3

    PGE2015

    PGE2015

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    I was thinking the same, it looks like the area dried out (no oil) then developed some slight corrosion. The surface may polish out with some fine valve seating compound or jewelers rouge. Perhaps inspect it for pits or cracking, if not too deep polish it out ?
     
  4. Dec 2, 2017 #4

    Dennis Flamini

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    Dave,
    i would find an O-290G case, grind off the mounting boss on the nose and use all your parts to rebuild it.
    i have one you can have for free and lots of other O-290D parts but you should be able to find one in your neighborhood.
    PS; 75 years old and that is the first time i have seen the crank thrust flange worn out.
     
  5. Dec 2, 2017 #5

    ndlakesdreamer

    ndlakesdreamer

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    With the metal transferred to the crank flange that damage wasn't done on the stand... unless Dave spent two weeks spinning the thing.
    I would be concerned about the end play between the case and that crank. Most likely the case is where the wear occurred. If that was my engine I'd breakdown and fully overhaul it.
     
  6. Dec 2, 2017 #6

    mreinh3233

    mreinh3233

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    I say fly it and watch it! (Not really! I agree with the above post. There is something going on with end play.
     
  7. Dec 2, 2017 #7

    TFF1

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    I'm going to be opposite everyone else, clean it up and use it. I would check crank end float. Im guessing the plane did a lot of long power off steep glides where the prop was driving the engine and pushing back on the crank. Someone who only does snaps on takeoff and thinks tumbles are lullabies is not going to be using this kind of engine. Mark all the bearing locations, if you are going to reuse them, and clean the case out well. As for the lifter, just age of the parts. What can look OK during an OH could just about ready to burn through the hardening, being reused as is. Was that one replaced and not with a good one? Could be anything with a field OH. Once a lifter starts breaking up, its just time. A O-235 and 290D are the most basic Lycomings ever made; every other engine is an improvement on these models. Just little production details can make a big difference.
     
  8. Dec 2, 2017 #8

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

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    Hey thanks guys... Like dreamer said. Don't think my rotating it maybe at most two times around could have caused it to gall to the extent of transferring the amount of alum to the back side of the oil slinger thrust flange, it took a lot of time and work to get it cleaned off and polished. Besides almost everyone that overhauls engines use a vertical stand with the prop flange bolted to it. and if this was the case I am sure their would be some sort of caution in doing so, and a lot more incidents of galling?

    Dennis thanks so much for your comment, and offer. What I need is a good servicable cam shaft for the O-290-D solid lifter engine the part number on mine is #61527 and is a shame as it could be easily polished and would be perfect except for the one lobe! If you have a serviceable yellow tag cam I would be interested? They made several different ones a narrow lobe, early one that I believe the part# is 61162 and also a later wide lobe # 62771 not sure which is which, chicken or egg?

    My parts guy says the new lifters he sell come with a really hard face coating and the last much longer than original or reground ones, so that is what I am going with.

    I thought I may have discovered what might have caused what happened to this engine, re the thrust flange galling...?


    TFFI I think you might be right on your assumption! In reviewing the log books, the original and the second log book the engine has had a most interesting life. It was originally installed on a PA-18 N1631A unk if it was a new airplane, back in 53, and was used extensively as a sprayer for White and R&S crop dusting it was later installed on N70537 a J-3, later on N30314 a J-5 and finally on N88152 another J-3 so from 1953 to 1963 the engine was extensively used as a sprayer and as such had about 1900 hrs of time of use doing this kind of work, and may have accounted for a lot of negative thrust but in talking with my friend that did a lot of spraying back in the day with similar airplanes said he did not think this would have caused it based on the way they flew and sprayed with it, as when loaded ran pretty much full throttle, and as the airplane got lighter on the down line would reduce the rpm some to a slower speed for spraying the field. He said about the only way this might happen would be if the airplane was used extensively as a glider tow plane, and after release power was pulled and spiral dived at extreme decent angles in order to get the next tow as they were graded on how quickly they could accomplish this? But he also said that these engines were made / certified to run as either a tractor or a pusher, ala varieze, or longeze, so even if this was the case it should not have caused it to gall!

    So its looking like the case will have to be checked out and overhauled. Dave
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  9. Dec 2, 2017 #9

    EAABipe40FF

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    Sounds good to me but you know me....... Do you really think long glides could do that? I'd think any oiling at all and that wouldn't happen? Maybe another reason to rev-up the engine every once and awhile while coming down.

    If true and it sure makes sense, shows that you can always learn something new.

    Jack
    .
     
  10. Dec 3, 2017 #10

    Dennis Flamini

    Dennis Flamini

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    Dave,
    i gave one O-290D cam to the Tailwind guys in Austria, i think i have another, i will check at the airport tomorrow. A friend with a Miniplane put the hydr lifter cam in by mistake and trashed the engine.
     
  11. Dec 3, 2017 #11

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

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    Hey Thanks Dennis let me know what you come up with, and if it is serviceable we can do some talking. Dave
     
  12. Dec 3, 2017 #12

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

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    Additional information, in checking the Crankshaft and Crankcase Front End Clearance, specs call for .009L to .016L Min and Max with a serviceable Max limit of .026L The most I have using my dial indicator and inside micrometer is .005, and this is after cleaning and polishing the back side of the thrust flange, so when I dissembled the engine it had approximately zero clearance!

    When the engine was overhauled about 200 hrs ago the crank shaft was sent out and overhauled, but nothing in the log book regarding the case? So something is not right or correct to the specs in this regard? Dave
     
  13. Dec 3, 2017 #13

    jrs14855

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    Dave-
    Something doesn't compute in the history of that engine. Volume production of the o 290 pretty much ended around the end of 1954 when Piper went to the 0 320 in all airplanes. Also 52-54 Pipers should have been 0 290 D2B with the hydraulic lifters. My point here is how in the world did this engine wind up in a Bellanca??? I don't believe it did.
    You should be able to have a specific repair done to the case for a very modest price. Check with both Divco and Crankcase services.
    Two possible causes of this: a previous improper repair of the case in the oil slinger area or a slightly bent slinger. Put the crank back in a case half and rotate it 360 degrees. Observe any change in the force required to turn the crank. You could also put a dial indicator on the slinger while turning the crank in the case half.
    I think your problem resulted from a mismatch between the crank and case resulting in inadequate end clearance.
    Do you have a need to keep this a certified engine??
     
  14. Dec 3, 2017 #14

    jrs14855

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    It is also possible that the galling is giving a false reading on crank end play.
    If the engine sat for a long time without proper treatment, then was run without pre oiling, I believe that could have caused the galling.
     
  15. Dec 3, 2017 #15

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

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    Jim Thanks so much for your very helpful assistance, and how are things in LHC like the London Bridge?

    Well I was trying to keep it as close as possible to a certified engine, but I am going to install a pressure carb, so after that it will no longer be a certified combination, so no it need not be certified.

    Again Jim and others I sincerely appreciate you indulging me. My engine guy will be back in a week or so and has been my go to guy, he use to run the engine rebuild shop for ECI when they had it here at Troutdale OR before they moved it to TX and is a DER and a most knowledgeable and helpful guy. Dave
     
  16. Dec 4, 2017 #16

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

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    Jim after doing what you asked there is virtually no play, zero nada, nothing, and this was after cleaning and polishing the back of the slinger negative thrust flange! I can get the crank to turn, with it well oiled but still with some drag, the slinger is straight and not bent at all. But there is no clearance! Pictures attached, I think the pictures make it look worse than it is, but you get the idea. Dave

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  17. Dec 4, 2017 #17

    Dana

    Dana

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    I'm no expert on these engines but judging from the wear marks on the crankshaft journals, it looks like the whole crankshaft may be a little too far back in the case?
     
  18. Dec 4, 2017 #18

    TFF1

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    Its defiantly a replacement from the original. Whoever put it together did not even look, even if he was not going to measure. I don't remember on that series, is the data tag on the case or pan. Pan, you can change everything and only Lycoming records could say its not.
     
  19. Dec 4, 2017 #19

    Tcraft

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    I'm no expert either, it looks to me like this crankshaft does not belong in this crankcase. It appears to have a thrust surface ground on the crank without a thrust style bearing? Not only am I not an expert, I've never done an overhaul, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last nite.
    Jeff
     
  20. Dec 4, 2017 #20

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

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    Well Jeff would that be a Holiday Inn Express you stayed at last night! When we were back at the Biplane fly-in in Bartlesville OK around 2004 we did stay at a Holiday Inn Express, and when anyone asked us if we were Biplane Pilots, are standard answer was no, but we did stay at a holiday Inn Express last night!

    Hey one more question for you guys? Does anyone know just what is used to clean and remove the carbon from the combustion chamber and the top of the pistons on the lycoming cylinders, besides carb cleaner and a lot of elbow grease?

    What do places like Gibson or others use to get them squeaky clean? Is it a hot tank like for automotive, or is their something one can use or spray on to loosen or remove the combustion chamber carbon, any thoughts would be much appreciated. Dave
     

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