• The Biplane Forum is a large global active community of biplane builders, owners and pilots. From Pitts to Skybolts, to older barnstormers, all types are welcome. In addition to our active community, our content boasts exhaustive technical information which is often sought after for projects and maintenance. This information has accumulated over the 12+ years the forum has been in existence.

    The Biplane Forum is a private community. Subscriptions are only $29.95/year to gain access to this great community and unmatched source of information not found anywhere else on the web. We are also a great resource for non biplane users, since many GA aircraft are built the same way (fabric and tube construction).

  • If you have bought, sold or gained information from our Classifieds, please donate to Biplane Forum and give back.

    You can become a Supporting Member which comes with a decal or just click here to donate.

S2-B on Trade-a-Plane

jdm

Registered Users
Joined
May 29, 2013
Messages
61
Reaction score
4
I just called and talked with Tony, and the plane sounds like it is very very lightly used, but taken care of with pre-oiling, etc., and living in a heated hanger in Wisconsin, along with his P-51, T-6, et al.

It's the right color scheme: Pitts red/white burst.

The only real ding I can find is that it still has the original 1987 factory fabric. If this is not a problem in the immediate future (5 years?) then this sounds great for me. If it's more likely that it really need replacing sooner, that sounds like a $30k hit, at least.

He's asking $82,500

N287PS, still in Mexico with Mexican registration, is asking $95,000. It was recovered in 2009 after an off-field landing.

Thoughts? Both sounds pretty great.
 

PittsDriver68

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
5,274
Reaction score
1,731
Location
NH16
Hmmm, the finish on the Wisconsin airplane is very old.

What process was used to cover the fabric? If it is the factory dope finish, very likely, and it is 25 years old, its a safe bet that a recover will be needed in the very near future. The manner in which dope ages just does not make it wise to expect much more life. It can look nice and start failing off the top wing center section, and from the inboard 2 rib bays in the prop wash the first snap that you do at that age. Maybe not on this airplane, but there is a lot of history that says the failure I describe is likely. Mine did that at 15 years.

I will suggest that your opinion of the price take the likely hood of a recover very soon into account. My recover did cost $30K. Cooper Superlite, which is what the factory now uses.

Best of luck,

Wes
 

Defenseman1

Registered Users
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
509
Reaction score
156
With a recover you'll have a great machine ready for he next 25 years for 110 ballpark. Compare that to similar scenarios such as a new purchase and you can't go wrong. I'm assuming the engine is a tight engine with no issues. Hoses and bungees can be addressed at re-rag. You may get a few years on the current cover and have a safe airplane, but I'd bet the farm you'll have the issues noted previous.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2008
Messages
3,303
Reaction score
1,734
A stock 1987 S2 recover is not just a recover, it's a rebuild. Allow a few bucks for hidden surprises. Even if it's somebody's pampered pet it is a 1987 aerobatic airplane.
 

ssmdive

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2014
Messages
992
Reaction score
362
He's asking $82,500

N287PS, still in Mexico with Mexican registration, is asking $95,000. It was recovered in 2009 after an off-field landing.

Thoughts? Both sounds pretty great.
I can't speak on any factory fabric issues….

But here is what I see:

Plane A is 82.5K and will need fabric in the near future (but not NOW). Figure 82.5K + 30K for the recover and you have 112.5K for a plane with new fabric in your colors.

Plane B is 95K and has 4 year old fabric in colors you like. It also has damage history and this always impacts price…. Maybe it should not, but I am not going to pay as much for a damaged plane as I would one with NDH. This plane is in Mexico and we don't know how difficult or expensive it will be to bring this plane back into the US. Knowing what I know about the FAA and the Federal govt….. I would not bet on it being easy, especially if you have no history of doing it and I also have no idea what the cost would be. A guy I know does export and I think he told me he charges 1k for the paperwork. Add to this that we already know that it is missing the 337 for the recover - I wonder what else is going to pop up as you try to bring it in?

Basically, plane A will cost you 17.5K more but has NDH and will have a fresh recover that will last 25 years.

If a recover is 30K and should last 25 years, that means 1,200 a year for fabric. 4 X 1200 is 4,800 dollars.

17.5 - 4.8 = 12,700 dollars difference. Lets say that plane "A's" fabric lasts another two years…. Take another 2,400 off. Three? 3,600.

So all said and done, if you can get two years of life out of plane A's fabric then recover it, the price difference is only 10.3K dollars.

I'd go with plane "A" based on NDH and the ease of not having to bring it into the country and deal with all the paperwork and cost.

Maybe someone on here can explain about how much an import should cost… then you can factor that in as well. Or maybe you can make the deal based on plane "B" being imported not at your expense.

Just my ramblings.
 

Himant

Registered Users
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
50
Reaction score
4
350 tt is a new airplane !! if its been inside out of the sun,,heated hangar,,im leaning in the wisconson direction ....I just bought an eagle with original 1987 fabric,and the only problem is light cracking on the urathane paint around the elevators,, wish it was buterate !! but have no doubt it will last a lot longer,,,
 

grassroots

Premium Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
2,053
Reaction score
1,345
I personally knew N287PS before it went to Mexico, and it's one of the nicest B's around.
 

smutny

Biplane Addict
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
1,292
Reaction score
256
More food for thought... My 1981 Eagle has original fabric on the fuselage. We recovered the wings at 2500 hours in 2008 or 09. The vast majority of the fabric was just fine, only a couple areas needed attention, and that could have been done piecemeal.

The "rule of thumb" of recovering doesn't really apply to our airplanes that spend their lives in hangars and are babied a lot. Each one has to be assessed individually. The nice thing is that in this day and age borescopes are cheap and give you a great look inside the tight spots.
 

jrs14855

Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
2,567
Reaction score
688
I just called and talked with Tony, and the plane sounds like it is very very lightly used, but taken care of with pre-oiling, etc., and living in a heated hanger in Wisconsin, along with his P-51, T-6, et al.

It's the right color scheme: Pitts red/white burst.

The only real ding I can find is that it still has the original 1987 factory fabric. If this is not a problem in the immediate future (5 years?) then this sounds great for me. If it's more likely that it really need replacing sooner, that sounds like a $30k hit, at least.

He's asking $82,500

N287PS, still in Mexico with Mexican registration, is asking $95,000. It was recovered in 2009 after an off-field landing.

Thoughts? Both sounds pretty great.
The problems with upper wing fabric are not directly related to age but are a workmanship issue. The factory went back and forth between Dacron/dope and Grade A somewhere around the late 80's. On the Dacron airplanes they did a horrid job of applying the tapes to some of the airplanes.
I recovered the wings on a near new T that had Dacron fabric and dope, only 100 hours or so since new. ( and only a year old at the time)
One airplane might shed the tapes in 100 hours, the next serial number would be fine. if the Wisconsin airplane has Dacron fabric and otherwise looks good buy it. I wouldn't take the Mexican airplane as a gift unless it was rebuilt in the US by a reputable person, and then I would discount it 30% for the damage history.
 

jdm

Registered Users
Joined
May 29, 2013
Messages
61
Reaction score
4
the "mexican" b has been south less than six months and was restored by herbco, a reputable us rebuilder, according to this board, and that was well after the off-field landing.

what, specifically, would you be so concerned that you "wouldnt take it as a gift?" afaik, putting different numbers on the side has little effect on aircraft performance ;-)



Sent from my iPad using Biplane Forum
 

gmann750

Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
991
Reaction score
299
There is a s-2e on trade a plane also. I wish it was closer.
 
Last edited:

Airbus155

New Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Like I said before, Herbco only painted and assembled the aircraft. They did not rebuild it. When I looked at it, I passed on it because of the lack of paperwork on the repairs. Best bet would be to call Herbco and get the straight scoop. Also, why did someone go to all of the trouble to import to Mexico only to sell it a couple of months later?
 

flyingdude

Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
13
Reaction score
3
Speaking of the S-2E on trade-a-plane, I have a few questions from those of you much more knowledgeable than I. The airplane has an IO-360 on it with a fixed-pitch prop (traditional E model). However, they say that the engine has been ported and has 10.5 to 1 pistons and produces 230HP. Says it was on a dyno at one time and put out 232 exactly. The empty weight on the data plate is 969 (not sure what current weight and balance is), so I am sure that it is a great performer. Is it actually possible to get the HP up that high on a parallel valve IO-360? The TBO is set at 1200 hrs, I'm sure since the engine has the higher compression pistons. Any special thoughts about it?

Doing the math, if the airplane puts out 230 HP, then the power to weight ration is the same as an S-2B. Sounds like it would be a nice plane if it checks out.

Every time I get on this forum, I am amazed at the unbelievable wealth of knowledge, and willingness to help and give advice. Thanks to all of you for passing some of your experience on to those of us trying to steepen our learning curve.
 
Last edited:

smutny

Biplane Addict
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
1,292
Reaction score
256
My parallel valve was dyno'd at 239hp at Lycon.
 

gmann750

Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
991
Reaction score
299
Speaking of the S-2E on trade-a-plane, I have a few questions from those of you much more knowledgeable than I. The airplane has an IO-360 on it with a fixed-pitch prop (traditional E model). However, they say that the engine has been ported and has 10.5 to 1 pistons and produces 230HP. Says it was on a dyno at one time and put out 232 exactly. The empty weight on the data plate is 969 (not sure what current weight and balance is), so I am sure that it is a great performer. Is it actually possible to get the HP up that high on a parallel valve IO-360? The TBO is set at 1200 hrs, I'm sure since the engine has the higher compression pistons. Any special thoughts about it?

Doing the math, if the airplane puts out 230 HP, then the power to weight ration is the same as an S-2B. Sounds like it would be a nice plane if it checks out.

Every time I get on this forum, I am amazed at the unbelievable wealth of knowledge, and willingness to help and give advice. Thanks to all of you for passing some of your experience on to those of us trying to steepen our learning curve.

I bet that thing would be a blast to fly.
 

flyingdude

Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
13
Reaction score
3
Thanks, Lycon is the one that did the rebuild on it.

I would think that it would be a blast to fly, then again what Pitts isn't.

I too am not close to the plane, (i'm in St. Louis) however, I decided to go forward on it. I am having a pre-buy done this weekend. We'll see, fingers crossed.
 

jerr888

Registered Users
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Messages
1,052
Reaction score
195
You'll love the S2A:
That appears to be a later kit with the taller/wider gear and sym ailerons. Should perform great. I like that the builder kept it light. A nice find!
 

Latest posts

Top