Starduster History N7X

Discussion in 'Starduster' started by Dave Baxter, Feb 8, 2018.

Help Support Biplane Forum by donating using the link above.
  1. Sep 4, 2018 #21

    mreinh3233

    mreinh3233

    mreinh3233

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Messages:
    301
    Likes Received:
    77
    That three point attitude you see in that cover shot may be caused by slow flight for the photo op and not a result of poor digging...
     
  2. Sep 4, 2018 #22

    Lotahp1

    Lotahp1

    Lotahp1

    Supporting Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2012
    Messages:
    3,999
    Likes Received:
    782
    Slow flight? I hear ya...but what was the photo ship my Aeronca 65-TC? ;-) I think I recall the owner saying cruise was 120mph or something like that. In any regards, maybe it’s just slowing down for a plane slower than a Radial Starduster Too...but I’d be willing to bet it’s a horizontal incidence issue. I base that on hearing about most of the other Heavy engine Starduster Toos requiring more incidence than a light Too.

    If I didn’t already have a project I’d have been tempted to buy N7X but it’s for sure a project. (The gear is Way forward...probably at 0-4” aft as opposed To the new 8” recommendation...and seeing how is been known as a bear on the ground I’d say it would benefit from the aft gear. Also gear needs to be longer...of for nothing else looks in my opinion) it would be an AMAZING plane to restore. But alas I’m already doing that to one. Maybe some day!

    As far as the truss...Dave Baxter welded me up one in his jig. I measured across my old one just to verify the length and he made one up in his jig. If I were you...I’d ask if he could weld you one up when he’s got some down time from his project. As far as installing it I fretted a lot over it. And in reality it wasn’t that bad. Make sure you level the new truss top bungee tube with the lower Longeron. And just just the old out...and grind carefully till the new one fits in the old spot. Since you are building new gear do this first. That way you can more easily keep the camber etc correct. (The gear tubes rest on the truss...you have a rubber pad that can be adjusted a bit to help with camber. But if you have ore built gear, and install the truss to far down...you will end up with bad camber. Make since???? A drawing would help if you don’t get it.

    I’m going out this week to mess with my Ranger Too. I’ll take some pics and measurements of my gear. Im happy with my rake now...about 12-12.5* I think I recall. But I had to use taller tires to get that. (I’m using Waco wheel pants. They look big, but look at the Culp Special, I’m using those same wheel pants. To me...your radial Too NEEDS these wheel pants. They are available and when I bought mine last year they were $500 plus $125 shipping)
     
    Martinb likes this.
  3. Sep 4, 2018 #23

    imacfii

    imacfii

    imacfii

    Supporting Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    6
    A few yars ago I saw a radial powered Starduster at Stockton, being built by Tom Cheers. Any idea if he got it finished Dave?
     
  4. Sep 4, 2018 #24

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

    Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    769
    Just about every Radial powered Starduster Too that I am aware of flew tail low! The ones that did not usually had a bigger engine and better thrust to horse power, mostly a more efficient propeller and used a higher cruise rpm, so many tried to run them like a Stearman, at 1750@ RPM, they flew tail low the engine lugged and was not happy!. Playing with the horizontal stabilizer could also make a difference, possibly adding 1/2 of a degree to both wing incidence, might also help. The 245. or 275 Jake with a controllable propeller would be a good start, as if you are going to have the weight, the extra HP also helps. All of the weight does not come from the big engine, but so much of the extra hardware and accessories do. Old school fuel strainer, fuel pump, 1/2" fuel lines if using a gravity feed system. generator/alternator starter. Not to mention the instruments radios and canopy, along with many creature comforts such as upholstery all add up! It is difficult for most in this day and age to build a Starduster Too with a four cylinder lycoming that weighs under 1200# empty! It can be done but a lot of time and money, along with many carbon fiber parts a good scale to weigh every part and piece and of course some well thought out and creative ways (Lighter) to solve these problems would be my thoughts! If one builds with traditional construction of the past, a 1500# or more airplane will result. Dave N53T 2 small.JPG
     
    Martinb likes this.
  5. Sep 4, 2018 #25

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

    Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    769
    I talked with Tom some yrs ago I believe he was a duster pilot, and it was my understanding that airplane, along with another Starduster Too project was for sale, and I do not think he was doing much with the build then or since, if anyone has an up date or pictures, please post or E-mail them to me? As for that airplane it was originally started by Paul Mayhew, of Palo Verdes Calif he overhauled the engine and ran it back in the day, about 1971 and like many projects for yrs had it setting around unfinished and later about 1998 was given to Rod Farley a retired airline guy that had interest in finishing it, he lived in Cameron park Calif and had I think a flying Navion, unfortunately, shortly their after ended up with cancer and not long after Tom Cheers acquired it! So that was about 19 yrs ago, perhaps Tom did work on it some, I do not know as he never contacted me about any building information, it is like so many projects from the 70s that are sitting around unfinished. I have some black and white pictures of it from the old Stardusters International news letter in 1971 published by Wil Neubert, and it was pretty well along even back then! Paul Mayhew actually called me, back in the late 90s after Rod was unable to finish it and had visions of taking it back and doing something, but apparently never did? Dave
     
    Martinb likes this.
  6. Sep 5, 2018 #26

    Martinb

    Martinb

    Martinb

    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2018
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tyndall mb canada
    2F04B59F-B393-4DC6-ADCE-0FE7D93DBE67.jpeg
    Lol
    Ill get to wheel pants once i get the truss figgured out , untill then,
    Im burrying myself happily in info and starduster build detail/info
    N7x gear detail was in atfached pik i found/posted, but much longer mount up front hanging the heavier engine as well, vs my compact short mount lighter more powerful jake setup.
    Im Crossing my fingers and 99% positive my build should be way better, then ill buy the wheelpants lol.
    As far as the truss, i was thinkin of making up a jig and digging up the old tig and start walking the cup..
    Correct me if im wrong, but whats the practice now with chromoly tubing welding via tig/airframe?
    Are weld joints being annealed after welding, and/or is the age old torch welding technique still prefered? Lol
    Ive built and welded a lot of fancy shmancy stuff in my short 43 yr lifetime , but befor i jump on this ,(and im sure id do a great job,.. seen some really booger stuff flying around, dont know how) , i just wanna make sure im on the up n up.. im a newbee to homebuilt
     
  7. Sep 5, 2018 #27

    Martinb

    Martinb

    Martinb

    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2018
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tyndall mb canada
    Hi dave,
    Do u recall what dia wood prop u used on your bird?
    I found a new prophub for wood prop and spoke with culver propeller about making a custom blade for the jakeduster for a fraction of the price of 2b20 hamstd and ALOT less weight!
    I wouldnt need a 93” dia prop either , but im asuming bigger dia would be best
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
  8. Sep 5, 2018 #28

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

    Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    769
    Lol
    Ill get to wheel pants once i get the truss figured out , until then,
    Im burrying myself happily in info and starduster build detail/info
    N7x gear detail was in attached pik i found/posted, but much longer mount up front hanging the heavier engine as well, vs my compact short mount lighter more powerful jake setup.
    Im Crossing my fingers and 99% positive my build should be way better, then ill buy the wheelpants lol.
    As far as the truss, i was thinking of making up a jig and digging up the old tig and start walking the cup..
    Correct me if im wrong, but whats the practice now with chromoly tubing welding via tig/airframe?
    Are weld joints being annealed after welding, and/or is the age old torch welding technique still preferred? Lol
    Ive built and welded a lot of fancy shmancy stuff in my short 43 yr lifetime , but before i jump on this ,(and im sure id do a great job,.. seen some really booger stuff flying around, dont know how) , i just wanna make sure im on the up n up.. im a newbee to homebuilt[/QUOTE]

    Martin, as a guy that has worked as a welder on several occasions, mostly on Stardusters Skybolts and Ag Cats and made a living at doing so, this is only my opinion as others may have done things a bit different. In the old days 1966 through the 70s many would after acetylene welding use a rosebud torch to warm up different area's of a cluster and let it slowly cool. or engine mount leg in order to get it to fit, but as you probably know getting to hot can also shrink it some or burn the molecules, and actually destroy the integrity of the metal once cooled off. The other question is how hot is hot? A dull red barely discernible in broad daylight ? Or a cherry red inside a darker shop? My point is back in the day it was very difficult to determine for most, we did have temp sticks special crayon like chalk that was used for different temps one could heat to. The beauty of acetylene welding is the whole cluster gets hot and cools slowly, and most Stardusters built back in the day were gas welded, about the only thing we used the tig for was welding Aluminum fuel tanks and some engine mount stuff as well as axles. Today with digital thermometers it might be a bit easier?

    However according to my go to metallurgist guy with common tig welding of thin wall 4130 sheet and tubing it is not necessary to do so, at least until up into plate steel a 1/4" thick or thicker, so for our kind of aircraft welding tig is plenty good enough, with out any pre or post heating at least in my opinion. It sounds like to me you would have little trouble making and welding up a truss. Dave
    SAM_1667 small.JPG SAM_1672 small.JPG SAM_1694 small.JPG SAM_1704 small.JPG SAM_1667 small.JPG SAM_1672 small.JPG SAM_1694 small.JPG SAM_1704 small.JPG
    SAM_1706 small.JPG DSC06047 small .JPG View attachment 43447
     
    Martinb likes this.
  9. Sep 5, 2018 #29

    Martinb

    Martinb

    Martinb

    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2018
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tyndall mb canada
    Wow thats some nice info shots right there!, Thank you very much Dave!
    I like the lengthened flat area spliced onto the bottom truss main tube , looks like it would really help stiffen it up from deflection
    , i stared at the truss ans wondered how it would fail, but the picture is definately worth a 1000 words!..
    I know what im doing shortly...

    Btw, in lengthening the gear, i would assume the axle tube angle/camber wouldnt change ..
    Now to find my landing gear stretcher....
     
  10. Sep 5, 2018 #30

    Martinb

    Martinb

    Martinb

    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2018
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tyndall mb canada
    Your weld info satisfies my curiosity as well
    I learned on torch gas welding exhaust many years ago, ..no not coat hanger lol
    Actually alloyed filler rod, we never had a weld break or let go lol
    The squarwave tig i ended up playing with and eventually and quickly ended up being the local tig welder go to guy..
    built alot of cool hotrods with tig welded and anealed alot of metal
    I have never played with chromoly tho, so was quite scared but after some poking around it seems its nicer to weld than Aluminum
    Guess im going to have to break down and buy another tig.. lol

    Thank very much for your knowledge and help!!
     
  11. Sep 5, 2018 #31

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

    Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    769
    View attachment 43464 View attachment 43464 N147DA rebuild 2 small.JPG N147DA rebuild 3 small.JPG
    Martin as I remember on the 220 Continental it was a square tip 96" wooden prop, with if I remember correctly could be had in 64, 66, and 68" pitch the other more common was a 98" wooden prop with same three pitches, after damaging the tips with the 98" prop and the short gear my friend Paul N105NL had one made to the PT-23 pitch and diameter, which I think was 86" X 58, 61, or 62" pitch, not sure which one he had made, but it made his Starduster Too fly much better and is what made it work?

    As you can see in the close up of N105NL flying with the Ranger powered Great Lakes it seems to be flying quite level, But Paul's airplane was very spartan and much lighter than most

    As for prop clearance on N147DA I believe it had about 7" of prop clearance in level flight, and I chose not to try wheel landing it! Dave
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
    Martinb likes this.
  12. Sep 12, 2018 #32

    Martinb

    Martinb

    Martinb

    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2018
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tyndall mb canada
    Wow beauty and awesome!!
    Thanks
    I had made a call to aircraft spruce today regarding tubing for longer legs, info or print for longer legs, heavier tubing spec etc... and they wanted me to contact u lol!
    They gave me a email address (...@comcast...) but i see it doesnt go thru..
    Is there any way i could email or contact u regarding this personally?
    Thanks,
    Martin.
     
  13. Sep 13, 2018 #33

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

    Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    769
    Martin I have sent it to you in a pvt message, please let me know if you do not receive it. Dave
     
    Martinb likes this.
  14. Sep 13, 2018 #34

    Martinb

    Martinb

    Martinb

    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2018
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tyndall mb canada
    Hi
    Yes got it and sent email
    Cheers!
     
  15. Sep 13, 2018 #35

    Thorpdrvr

    Thorpdrvr

    Thorpdrvr

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2014
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    11
    So how does the horizontal stab incidence affect the cruise angle of attack?
     
  16. Sep 13, 2018 #36

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

    Dave Baxter

    Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    769
    It depends on the airplane, the Starduster Too has zero incidence in the upper wing, and 1 degree of positive in the lower wing in relation to the upper longeron, and for most first flights the horizontal stab should be set at zero, or level with the upper longeron. Usually speaking, a tail heavy airplane like many early Stardusters, ones that had short engine mounts needed some positive incidence, (Leading Edge Up) from as much as 1 degree to 3 degree's! And a nose heavy airplane like my son's 540 powered one would need some negative incidence at least 1 degree ( Leading Edge Down) or more. However some airplanes especially the radial powered ones that are quite heavy, mostly one would think nose heavy, would need some negative? But in the case of N7x that had an extended fuselage as well as several other over weight radial airplanes and a lot of the weight in these is aft of thee front cockpit, that in my opinion makes some of them tail heavy, thus needing positive incidence. It is possible that this airplane and other radial powered ones have to much negative incidence, but in the case of N7X I do not think so. Think of it this way, on standard category airplanes if one had a lot of up or down trim it would slow the airplane down, as the horizontal stab and elevator would not be level or in the same plane , and thus if level faster and more efficient. If this makes sense? Dave
     
  17. Sep 13, 2018 #37

    cwilliamrose

    cwilliamrose

    cwilliamrose

    Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2009
    Messages:
    7,732
    Likes Received:
    1,675
    Location:
    SW Florida (94FL)
    I shouldn't (in any measurable way). The tail's incidence is not related to the AOA the wing needs to fly level at cruise power. The only thing it effects is the position of the elevator during cruise. The elevator not being in trail during cruise will add some drag which will slow the airplane down a little and indirectly cause a slightly higher AOA at a given power setting but it will be a very small difference -- one not easily measured.
     
  18. Sep 24, 2018 at 11:56 PM #38

    Dennis Flamini

    Dennis Flamini

    Dennis Flamini

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,195
    Likes Received:
    834
    My first biplane ride about 40 years ago.
    Bill Hargraves SD 2, N272K
    Hargraves Starduster N272K.jpg
     
  19. Sep 25, 2018 at 3:57 AM #39

    Timbob

    Timbob

    Timbob

    Supporting Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Messages:
    605
    Likes Received:
    109
    Location:
    Socorro, NM USA
    Don't buy 2" streamline from AS, I sent back two curved 4' sections....."They come that way from the mill!" Don't think so....
     
  20. Sep 25, 2018 at 4:06 AM #40

    Knight Twister

    Knight Twister

    Knight Twister

    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    2,722
    Likes Received:
    1,098
    How many feet you need? I have straight sections of it.
     

Share This Page