• The Biplane Forum is a large global active community of biplane builders, owners and pilots. From Pitts to Skybolts, to older barnstormers, all types are welcome. In addition to our active community, our content boasts exhaustive technical information which is often sought after for projects and maintenance. This information has accumulated over the 12+ years the forum has been in existence.

    The Biplane Forum is a private community. Subscriptions are only $29.95/year to gain access to this great community and unmatched source of information not found anywhere else on the web. We are also a great resource for non biplane users, since many GA aircraft are built the same way (fabric and tube construction).

  • If you have bought, sold or gained information from our Classifieds, please donate to Biplane Forum and give back.

    You can become a Supporting Member which comes with a decal or just click here to donate.

Starduster Too for Sale in Montana

CKeller

Premium Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Messages
268
Reaction score
25
<TABLE =moz-email-ers-table border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>


<TH vAlign=line noWrap align=right>Subject: </TH>
EAA 517

<TH vAlign=line noWrap align=right>Date: </TH>
Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:30:23 -0500 (EST)

<TH vAlign=line noWrap align=right>From: </TH>
[email protected]

<TH vAlign=line noWrap align=right>To: </TH>
[email protected]




Hi Guys,
Please help us dispose of the 2005 Starduster Too that was donated to EAA 517. We are accepting offers and would like to see it gone before Christmas. Please be kind enough to pass the word to your members. This link will take you to a web page that was donated to us with details.


http://www.aircraftexchangenetwork.com/listman/listings/l0024.php
 

gbmmoyair

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
122
Reaction score
15
buyer beware - this plane apparently has issues and should not be considered a flying plane - there was some info about it on the Starduster forum - please tell the whole story here - rebut that information or whatever - lets not get anyone hurt
 

darylat8750

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
2,176
Reaction score
92
Do you have a link to the starduster forum? I can't seem to find it with my search engine.
 

darylat8750

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
2,176
Reaction score
92

Thanks.

Solo from the front? With a Subbie? Weight/Balance can't be right without a bunch of lead in the tail.
 

Dave Baxter

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
2,633
Reaction score
1,732
To those interested I spent some time with the widow of he
builder trying to get the airplane donated to the Wathen Foundation at
FlaBob airport in Riverside Ca. This effort fell through and the
airplane was donated to the local EAA chapter. Steve Rossiter of
chapter 517 called me about my thoughts on doing what was best for this
airplane. I suggested that the engine be removed and sold separately.



The airplane has several problems, (1) old style early forward
landing gear. (2) the Subaru auto engine conversion unknown as to its
value or perceived reliability. The builder spent a lot of money on
this engine conversion, but that does not mean that it is airworthy and
the 230 hp stated is in my opinion optimistic . (3) The airplane is
also configured, PIC to fly from the front cockpit! (4) the FAA
examiner that issued the airworthiness certificate and the builder got
into a pissing match over the weight and balance and insisted on doing
his own, and would not issue the certificate. unless his W&amp;B
numbers were used! I believe his numbers are incorrect!



This was done much to the chagrin of the builder he also required
the time be flown off by a test pilot! Of the 5.5 hrs of time only 2.5
was actually in the air. By chance I met and talked with on of the two
pilots that had flown this airplane and he said it was a intimidating
airplane to fly and that he bowed out. At approx 2.5 hrs the aircraft
was damaged on its second flight. One landing gear and wing panel was
rebuilt and the airplane has not flown since. Unknown as to the quality
of the repair usually when the airplane goes down on one wing during a
ground loop it breaks the front spar at the "I" strut!




(5) If the airplane could be bid on and bought at the right price less
engine, and if the new owner redid the gear and moved all of the pilot
controls back to the rear cockpit along with installing at least a 180
hp lycoming the airplane might well be a good one. I have never seen
this airplane in person and can not comment on the quality of the work!




Other complete airworthy Stardusters less engine have sold for
around $ 8,000 dollars, and this do to the forward gear front cockpit
PIC set up and the fact that it was damaged although repaired. Would in
my opinion lower the price substantially.




(6) The fact that the time has never been flown off and the
unconventional engine and pilot location could make for nightmares in
doing so. The title, airworthiness and flight time of the phase I log
book entries could also be compromised along with repairman's
certificate could also be a big bag of worms! Furthermore I am
concerned that someone might buy this airplane in its current
configuration and try to fly the time off not knowing all of these
problems and get hurt doing so!




Again this is only my opinion based on what I know, but like I said
"if it" could be bought at a fair price and one wants to do some work
it might be a good airplane, but even so one could buy Allen Williams
airplane currently on Barnstormers for $20,000 and I think you would be
money ahead and all you would have to do with it is put gas in it and
fly it home! Dave
_________________
Dave Baxter


Starduster History
 

Neil

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
6,598
Reaction score
1,156
Location
Monroe, Louisiana
A sad example of a builder taking liberties with a proven design thinking he is sharper than the designer.

We have a Supercharged Subaru conversion that is currently on a Glassair II that suffers from many of the same ailments. Lots of lead in the tail.

Any body in the market for a Supercharged Subaru? Engine runs great but it is heavy and expensive. Would probably work great in a Subaru.

 

Dave Baxter

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
2,633
Reaction score
1,732
Well Neil i do not think that this was his intent as he like many, have bought into the idea that one can get the horse power cheaper and easier and based on what Lycoming or any other overhaul facility currently is charging for even a basic overhaul can easily convince a person that all I need to do is buy a late model engine out of a wrecked car bolt on some sort of gear reduction and you are on your way at a fraction of the price.

The reality is that many I have spoke to over the years have told me some candidly that they spent as much or more in the end as if they had overhauled their Lycomings pulse they have never enjoyed the reliability and pace of mind they had hoped for.

I do not mean to slam auto conversions as many have been successful and i applaud those who have, but not in a Starduster or other tail wheel airplane for that matter. I do think that they are getting closer, There are so many things to be resolved and done so in a reliable way that most unless they are up to the task have struggled with. Gear reduction fuel systems, electrical, cooling and exhaust. I have 2355 hrs on my airplane over a 20 yr period and after 8 trips to Oshkosh would not trade my lycoming for any auto conversion over them there mountains and them their other ones they call the Rockies. Again this is only my opinion
 

Neil

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
6,598
Reaction score
1,156
Location
Monroe, Louisiana
I'm not a big fan of auto conversions because, as you say, in the end they will cost as much as an aircraft engine. The conversion we have in the shop is very well done, to the point of being impressive. It just weighs a lot and cost more than a Lycoming.

I understand builders getting caught up in the Auto Engine concept. It is a bit like a dangling carrot.

 

darylat8750

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
2,176
Reaction score
92
I love the IDEA of the auto conversions. Someday they may have it worked out. For now reality is "too heavy, to unreliable". A engineering prof at the UWYO built a RV7 with a Mazda conversion. Very nicely done. It did take him about 4 years of R&amp;D with both brains and facilities that most of us don't have. It is a little heavier than a O360. He has flown side by side many times with a friend's RV7 that is very similar and their speeds are very close with the rotary burning a little more fuel. Even if you figure his time as free and he has machining available for free I would bet he has more $ in it than a good used Lyc.
 

NDTOO

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
1,001
Reaction score
686
I always find the subject of auto conversions interesting. In a previous job I was involved with the Orenda Recip. program which is nowowned byTrace in Texas. We started converting a 685 Twin Commander and eventually did complete an STC on the 401 Air Tractor. This powerplant is an all alum., turbo charged, intercooled V-8. It seems any of these types of installations are much more complicated and heavier than their air cooled counterparts.


The STC for the AT-401 took several years and while performance was very good their were still issues to be resolved. Unfortunately Orenda Recip pulled the plug on the project and it never really materialized.


I am all for alternative powerplants but a IO-540 is going on my TOO.
 

Latest posts

Top