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Super Acro Sport 1

beamanhf

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The airframe is 260TT with new Stitts fabric completed in 2018. the engine is 0-323 Lycoming 2352.7 SMOH and a little less than 10 STOH. Selling as I'm retiring and getting out of aviation. Has new Garmin comm. I nave new spinner and wheel pants and misc parts. Asking $25,500 or OBO.
 

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wanttaja

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Sadly, this isn't rare. About 20% of accidents that involve purchased homebuilt occur in the first five hours of ownership....

Ron Wanttaja
purchase_time.jpg
 

flyer216

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Not sure if this is the appropriate place to continue this discussion, but for sure the first few hours in a EAB is risky business and even more so in a single seat airplane that you can't get checked out in. If it's a "flying" airplane, the best you can hope for is to at least observe the seller fly it and listen and watch for any abnormalities, for example it's doesn't sound like it's developing full power, it's trailing smoke (that's a bad one) etc. and check if over thoroughly after that flight for leaks, loose parts, etc. You still don't know for sure until you fly it yourself if that particular airplane has any unusual flight characteristics, (a heavy wing, tends to pull to one side on the runway, unusual vibrations, etc.) and if all the instruments, even the radio and other equipment is working properly till you get in the air. Sure you can ground check everything possible, do high speed taxis full power run ups but things can go to hell quickly once those wheels leave the ground. I'm certainly not a professional pilot, an aerobatic competitor, or some kind of know it all but I have owned 4 high performance single seat EAB's (and several two seaters) and getting ready to buy another one. For me at least, that first flight is one of the scariest things I've ever done. It's a giant leap of faith. You just don't know how that thing is going to behave until you're actually rolling down that runway past the point of no return and you're committed to fly. No sane person can take this experience lightly. Another thing is in a new plane you can more easily get distracted trying to figure out how some unfamiliar piece of equipment works or why things aren't working. You wouldn't be the first person to inadvertently pull the mixture back instead of the carb heat or throttle in a non-standard configuration. Just sayin, there's a lot going on and a lot that can go wrong, especially in those first few hours and the statistics bare that out.
 
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Herbert

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Sadly, this isn't rare. About 20% of accidents that involve purchased homebuilt occur in the first five hours of ownership....

Ron WanttajaView attachment 48442
and , because of liability, you must watch what you sell and to who you sell it ....... regardless of the registration status of the plane
 

wanttaja

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and , because of liability, you must watch what you sell and to who you sell it ....... regardless of the registration status of the plane
Much less of a problem than people think. I'm aware of only one EAB builder ever getting sued from an accident that occurred to a subsequent builder, and he was quickly dropped from the suit.

Ron Wanttaja
 

Herbert

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But it is a problem ..... I assure you from experience
 

flyer216

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That's my impression also, agreeing with wanttaja. You can be sued for just about anything and it takes money to defend a lawsuit, but my understanding per EAA is, no one has ever successfully sued a builder/owner of an Experimental after the sale of the aircraft. None the less, it's good practice to have the buyer sign an iron clad hold harmless agreement and I am always willing to sign one when I am the purchaser. Also, I would never sell a high performance tailwheel aircraft to anyone with no time/low time or other wise questionably qualified. I of course don't want to see anyone get hurt and I don't want the airplane I've diligently cared for to get banged up. We all have to be conscience of the fact, every time there is an incident or accident involving a "small airplane" let alone an "Experimental" aircraft, it gives the naysayers and the opposition more ammunition to further regulate our activities.
 
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Wildly subjective opinions on the topic of liability and our exp category aircraft.
 

wanttaja

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...None the less, it's good practice to have the buyer sign an iron clad hold harmless agreement and I am always willing to sign one when I am the purchaser.
Sadly, those are worthless.

The buyer can sign away his right to sue you over any alleged deficiencies in the aircraft, but he can't sign away the right for his wife or children to sue you. Or for the person HE sells the airplane to. I'm the fourth owner of my Fly Baby.

Ron Wanttaja
 

Herbert

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The experience is from being a "expert witness". Any "fingerprints" on the plane are usually named in the lawsuit.

The attorneys go after the deep pockets but get there by going after the shallow ones with an insurance policy ..... Mechanics especially.

Engine manufacturers and accessories. Carbs and cylinders.

Doesnt matter if it is EAB or certified. If they have a case or there is precedent, everyone is part of the game.

Check out The Wolk Law Firm ..... They claim to be in it for the safety....
 

flyer216

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As I stated, you can sue anyone for just about anything, but does anyone know of a case where a jury awarded a settlement to the builder or seller of an Experimental aircraft after a crash? Please provide the details because I'd for one would like to read up on it and it may change my thinking. A great grandchild can sue the builder but clearly the fact the new owner/pilot who was killed or injured in a crash signed a document clearly stating the following and more will hold considerable weight with a jury's decision. "This is an amateur built experimental aircraft, not built to conform to the standards of certified aircraft, with a non-certified engine, requires special skills and training and the buyer is solely responsible for obtaining that training....on and on and on". In other words he clearly knew what he was getting into and assumed all responsibility. Sure there is some speculation here. A jury can go either way, but up until now, don't know of a single case where they decided against the seller or builder. I have some personal experience is this area too. Here's some speculation; you sell a high performance tailwheel airplane to an 80 something year old guy, with no medical, no license, clearly not in his right mind to execute a legal document....what happens then if he is killed or injured?
 

Dennis Flamini

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Lawyers will tell you anything is possible.
Case in point;
A guy was running his C172 on the ground while tied down and was found dead from CO.
The guy who signed off the annual the time before last and the maint. shop were sued and won
a settlement that forced the IA to sell a recently restored o-360 Super Cub to pay his expenses.

On the other hand i was talking to Bob Bushby about law suits and he said it only happened one time and he won.
 

Dennis Flamini

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A skeletal staff was on hand to finish assembling kits already on the line, according to aircraft owners contacted for this article. However, the future of factory support and insurance remained unknown. There are questions as to what happens to the 85 built and registered Evolution aircraft, and what closure means for owners who have shelled out more than $1 million for the fast, high-altitude, pressurized four-person stallion.

Evolution aircraft owners and aviation industry personnel pointed to a July 17 fatal crash in Mesa, Arizona, which killed two people, as the beginning of the firm’s downfall. As a result of that accident and subsequent lawsuit, the company has apparently been unable to acquire liability insurance for continued operations, according to persons with knowledge of the situation.


In the last 22 months, there were at least five accidents involving Evolution aircraft that involved hull losses, including one in which a windscreen “exploded” in cruise flight “instantaneously without any pre-indication,” according to an NTSB report.

Evolution aircraft owners shared concerns about maintaining their own insurance in the wake of the somewhat high number of accidents on the relatively small fleet of aircraft.

The prototype of the $1.3 million experimental aircraft first flew in 2008, and the company began selling kit aircraft the following year. Doug Walker, the owner of an Evolution model, flew with AOPA for a 2012 article on the Evolution and noted that the agile aircraft was “much simpler than a high-performance piston airplane.”

The recent termination does not affect Lancair’s other piston designs such as the Mako, which is owned and operated by a separate company based in Uvalde, Texas. The same Texas firm also supports Lancair legacy aircraft including the popular and speedy two-person Lancair 320-360 line, and four-person IV-IVP, ES-ESP, and Propjet.
 

Herbert

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Being sued and loosing are certainly two different things. A mechanic/builder/parts provider can be ruined by a lawsuit, even when exonerated by a settlement with prejudice. All it takes is being named in a suit, having to hire an attorney and dealing with the ramifications- even with insurance, the notion that "you" are involved in something like this is indeed cause for leaving the business.

Again, the attorneys go after the deep pockets (eng, cyl, acc, parts) manufacturers and get there by depleting/settling with insurance carriers ...... been there seen that- you never hear or read about them because they are the early settlements to pay for the next step in the suit, and are generally not public info because they are settlements, not findings by a jury.

The issue with this type of accident, as we know, is not the airplane, it is the 82 yr old pilot, possible medical issues, possibly no currency, possibly no skills at all (flying or mechanical) .... but attorneys always get around that by showing that it "couldn't have been the pilot, he was a terrific pilot and a great person with a great family".... and juries have no clue, but they do have sympathy. Even when a non-pilot is at the controls the plaintiffs attorneys look for things that don't involve the person at the controls, salivating while looking at those deep pockets.

Just be careful of what you sell and to whom you sell it ..... that was all I was mentioning.
 
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Herbert

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As I stated, you can sue anyone for just about anything, but does anyone know of a case where a jury awarded a settlement to the builder or seller of an Experimental aircraft after a crash? Please provide the details because I'd for one would like to read up on it and it may change my thinking. A great grandchild can sue the builder but clearly the fact the new owner/pilot who was killed or injured in a crash signed a document clearly stating the following and more will hold considerable weight with a jury's decision. "This is an amateur built experimental aircraft, not built to conform to the standards of certified aircraft, with a non-certified engine, requires special skills and training and the buyer is solely responsible for obtaining that training....on and on and on". In other words he clearly knew what he was getting into and assumed all responsibility. Sure there is some speculation here. A jury can go either way, but up until now, don't know of a single case where they decided against the seller or builder. I have some personal experience is this area too. Here's some speculation; you sell a high performance tailwheel airplane to an 80 something year old guy, with no medical, no license, clearly not in his right mind to execute a legal document....what happens then if he is killed or injured?
Agreed- Unless directly involved in a lawsuit, all settlements leading up to a jury award with deep pockets involved, a person outside of the suit will not be privy to any settlement- and there are generally a number of minor settlements allowing the plaintiff to move on to the big boys, generally screwing the shallow pockets on the way.
 

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